53P Arrows Half but NO RAYS - could this be real?

Colorfulcoins

1853-P Seated Half Arrows obv but no apparent Rays on reverse. Wish I had a scale to weigh the coin as I have several other worn 53Ps to compare but in hand, I don't see evidence of any obvious alteration. Thoughts?





************Added many more pictures and close-ups on page-2 ***********************

rhedden

Wow, that is a first for me. The reverse does not look like it has been tooled, but it is very worn, so it's tough to say. If real, it would be something to behold.

crypto79

Nothing to add but curious to see what others say

LanLord

Something doesn't seem right to me.

Consider the advanced state of wear, both obverse and reverse (nearly all the stars are worn off the obverse), yet the date looks like it should be on a coin with about f15 to vf20 grade.

I think, sometime long ago the date/arrows were goofed with. Just my hunch!

DIMEMAN

I assume you have checked the edge for "sandwich".

braddick

^The date is protected on these coins.

I'm looking forward to a follow up!

BillJones

Here is a high grade genuine example that we can use for a comparison.




I think that the rays on the reverse may have been tooled off of this piece. You will note that the surfaces appear to "flattened" below the letters where the rays should be. If you look about a quarter way down the right wing, just under the upright of the "R" in "AMERICA," I think you can see traces of a ray that is a bit stronger than the others on the coin.

AUandAG

I think I see the remains of two rays just at the top of the eagles left (your right) wing.

bob

JonMN34

take a close look between the leaves at the left and between the wing and leaves

I think I see remnants of rays

partagas

Agree with the statement the coin has been tooled then worn down.

TPRC

I also think the rays were removed. Reverse field looks abraded. Not a bad job though. Date looks OK to me.

IrishMikey

It looks like one of the rays, from the bottom arrow shaft to the arrow head, is still there.

coinkid855

I think they were tooled off.




-Paul

BaseballAbs

Too low a grade to determine any real evidence in my opinion. Find one in higher grade that has no rays and you might have an argument.

LindeDad

Somebody very bored had a lot of fun.

Colorfulcoins

Appreciate all the input and based on what you guys said. Of course, your comments are only as good as the pictures themselves. After really looking at the coin, the only comment that I can say is truly valid is IrishMikey - he pointed out a remaining pay on the edge of the lower arrow. Its hard to see so I took some better pictures. That's not to say that Bill Jones is wrong about the fields or that AUandAG's comments about the wing, or JohnMN34's comments about the leaves aren't correct, they just aren't definitive, especially with coin in hand....and a very worn coin.

First, here's some comparative 53-P reverses in Fair-2 or lower end AG3, which is similar to the subject coin.....similar but variations in each but all still show Rays:




And here's a larger picture of the subject coin - about 1100 pixels for a better look:



And lastly, to IrishMikey's comment about the Ray next to the Arrowhead, here's some close-up's of all 5 of the coins of that area to compare:

Questionable 53P next to one of the other examples.....you can see the ray beneath the arrow:





So unless there's another explanation for the Ray existing below the arrow, I would conclude the rays were removed from this coin at some time in the past, and quite well done but not comprehensively....

DorkGirl

Great pics!

COALPORTER

<< <i>It looks like one of the rays, from the bottom arrow shaft to the arrow head, is still there. >>



Yes, i saw that too. I think it is a real coin, just highly worn. Maybe someone did carve off some of the rays to help it out . I bet
it was done along time ago, and not done to fool collectors- just some bored hillbilly with a pocket knife.

CaptHenway

In my years at ANACS I saw two or three 1853 quarters or halves with the rays tooled off.
TD

MsMorrisine

I'm looking at the curvature of the upper corners on the inset part of the shield (reverse), and must say the shape of them are different from the known real ones (top corners of the inset are more pointed) also pictured.


but I otherwise don't know what I'm looking at.

roadrunner

Note that the deeper toned spots around the eagle are just where the rays wouldn't be. Just by the way the toning looks I'd say they were tooled off.

roadrunner

yosclimber

Also, the short ray down from the bud above H in HALF is plain on the coin, and can be seen on the high grade example, and on worn coins 1, 2 and 4.

kaz

One of the 4 examples posted together (the upper right one) has a triangular die break or something in the shield on the right side, just like the "suspect" coin. This would imply they are from the same die, and the rays removed on the coin.
(I like these detective threads!)