<< <i>Well, it is 4 yrs and 11 months until the 30th Anniv. Set. They have time to work out the pre-sale details. >>
Mintage will be two million, household limit will be one for the first four weeks, No demand, no price, no value. All fixed to prevent the problems from the 25th anniversary set from recurring
If you enter into a contract to unconditionally sell to Joe Barnes for a set price an item [25th ASE set, car, etc.] that you do not own/possess at the time you enter the contract, if you fail to perform the contract Joe Barnes can sue you for breach of contract and recover from you the damages your breach of the contract has caused him.
If you defended by claiming that you were not able to perform because you were unable to acquire the item you contracted to sell [i.e. because the mint cancelled your order], tough nuggies for you. You will lose.
Whether it makes economic sense to sue is another matter given the time money and effort required to do so.
This type of case would be good for TV, ala Judge Judy.
<< <i>It is irrelevant that the mint didn't fulfill the order. The only way it would be relevant is if were in the contract. >>
There was no contract. Just a series of emails discussing a possible sale. The potential buyer never paid any money, never got a signed agreement. >>
It is a binding contract. Non delivery by the mint is a valid defense. Most contract cases only allow jurisdiction in the domicile of the defendant, or where the contract was entered into.
It is generally not worth the trouble to file a suit. Dealers have to deal with this all the time. If the price goes up, people renege. If it goes down they expect the dealer to hold his part of the deal. No suits will be filed unless the deal is big. 50 sets might be worth the trouble, especially if you have it in writing. --Jerry
This looks like a big scare tactic to me, no way this would get to litigation. From what I can remember from my law school contracts class last year, Impossibility or Impracticability would likely be the defenses that you would want to use in court. No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have!
<< <i>It is irrelevant that the mint didn't fulfill the order. The only way it would be relevant is if were in the contract. >>
There was no contract. Just a series of emails discussing a possible sale. The potential buyer never paid any money, never got a signed agreement. >>
You don't pay money until goods are delivered. Offer and acceptance. Binding contract. Knowing how to google doesn't make you a lawyer. Please stop. >>
<< <i>No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have! >>
That's not always true, but an important aspect here is that the buyer knew (or should have) that there was a decent chance the seller would not be able to acquire the sets because of the limited quantity and the huge demand. Therefore, it would not be reasonable to rely on the seller's promise to sell one at the agreed-upon rate and then pre-sell that set to someone else (which would likely need to be the case in order to establish lost profits/damages).
<< <i>If you enter into a contract to unconditionally sell to Joe Barnes for a set price an item [25th ASE set, car, etc.] that you do not own/possess at the time you enter the contract, if you fail to perform the contract Joe Barnes can sue you for breach of contract and recover from you the damages your breach of the contract has caused him.
If you defended by claiming that you were not able to perform because you were unable to acquire the item you contracted to sell [i.e. because the mint cancelled your order], tough nuggies for you. You will lose.
Whether it makes economic sense to sue is another matter given the time money and effort required to do so.
This type of case would be good for TV, ala Judge Judy. >>
So do you judge either of the two such situations presented above as being entered into unconditionally?
<< <i>This looks like a big scare tactic to me, no way this would get to litigation. From what I can remember from my law school contracts class last year, Impossibility or Impracticability would likely be the defenses that you would want to use in court. No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have! >>
Farmers sometimes forward contract their corn crop. If they can't deliver a crop then they have to go out and buy corn on the open market to satisfy the contract. There is no law against selling something that you can reasonably expect to get.
<< <i>It is irrelevant that the mint didn't fulfill the order. The only way it would be relevant is if were in the contract. >>
There was no contract. Just a series of emails discussing a possible sale. The potential buyer never paid any money, never got a signed agreement. >>
You don't pay money until goods are delivered. Offer and acceptance. Binding contract. Knowing how to google doesn't make you a lawyer. Please stop. >>
I'm glad it doesn't woirk this way on eBay. Or Heritage. Or Teletrade. Or David Lawrence.
I pay.......then they ship. Not the other way around.
Heck, even the US Mint made me pay before they'd ship.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Okay - now we need a lawyer to answer a question...
Can you enter into a contract with a email address? If my email is 'igotsets@yahoo.com' is that enough to perfect a contract? And what jurisdiction would a suit be filed in? The buyers or the sellers?
You would just hear the "I had to back out because my dad/mom/friend/brother/sister/dog looked on ebay and saw they were going for more so they backed out on me" excuses come into play. Oh, hold it. We already have heard those in some of the threads from the pre-flippers
<< <i>If the seller truly had an order cancelled then there is no way it would hold up in court. It's sad how crazy these are making people...I just want it all to be over. >>
I agree as the contract/agreement was for 1 unique order number that the seller had supplied to GoldMart.
JMO . . . I'm no lawyer
HH
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
I guess part of this could be "what is a contract". I was nearly engaged in litigation after I was ripped off for tens of thousands of dollars from an arizona web company years ago. I felt I had been taken advantage of as the communications between us were horrible, espcially after 9/11 as I was not even in a metro area of the country I was living in ( I was outsourcing work to an American company since I was an American and a Polack as evidenced by the fact that despite the ease I could have gotten this work done for a fraction of what I paid and was ripped off for I hired the American outfit anyway. ) and without boring you with the details about 80K or so into the project, I found myself without even the source code to pick up and move on.
I called a lawyer I knew back stateside who told me that in order for a contract to be valid there would need to be a meeting of the minds. That means that both parties have to sign it. If both parties did not sign it then there's no meeting of the minds and as such, no contract. That's a Palm Beach Cnty lawyer. I don't know if a different geographical area would yield a different response.
<< <i>I guess part of this could be "what is a contract". I was nearly engaged in litigation after I was ripped off for tens of thousands of dollars from an arizona web company years ago. I felt I had been taken advantage of as the communications between us were horrible, espcially after 9/11 as I was not even in a metro area of the country I was living in ( I was outsourcing work to an American company since I was an American and a Polack as evidenced by the fact that despite the ease I could have gotten this work done for a fraction of what I paid and was ripped off for I hired the American outfit anyway. ) and without boring you with the details about 80K or so into the project, I found myself without even the source code to pick up and move on.
I called a lawyer I knew back stateside who told me that in order for a contract to be valid there would need to be a meeting of the minds. That means that both parties have to sign it. If both parties did not sign it then there's no meeting of the minds and as such, no contract. That's a Palm Beach Cnty lawyer. I don't know if a different geographical area would yield a different response. >>
That was always my understanding, a signed contract, even better if notarized.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
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Meeting of the minds has nothing to do with a signature. It just means that both parties are in agreement to the terms of the deal. A contract does not have to be in writing to be valid. A contract for the sale of goods in an amount in excess of $500 has to be in writing to satisfy the Statute of Frauds. An oral contract may still be a valid contract, but it would be harder to enforce if not in writing. A chain of emails would probably satisfy this requirement.
When negotiating these types of deals it is very important to be specific about the terms. If there was no condition about actually receiving the coins from the mint, the seller would rightly expect the seller to buy the coins on the open market to satisfy the terms of the deal, but he would be a jerk to do so. The seller should have conditioned the deal on a successful order with the Mint, especially knowing that the demand would be high and the historically craptastic performance of the Mint's ordering system for high demand items.
<< <i>You would just hear the "I had to back out because my dad/mom/friend/brother/sister/dog looked on ebay and saw they were going for more so they backed out on me" excuses come into play. Oh, hold it. We already have heard those in some of the threads from the pre-flippers >>
Agreed. The one I was given on a $2300 back out was my transmission went out.
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Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>With the order number the buyer can check on the status the same way you can and he will know if it was canceled or if you took delivery. >>
Yes, if it was supplied to the buyer. If it wasn't, buyer is going to have a pretty tough time proving anything. Then there's the damages issue... >>
If no order number was supplied, then you have no deal. >>
I cannot believe the legal issue comes down to that point. >>
Isn't that what the MCM offer comes down to? It is the way I read it. Also one was required to submit his order number within a certain time frame. The Sego offer is conditional upon your being able to get a set from the mint. The Goldmart situation in the OP appears to be different from the other 2.
Unless you give say MCM an order number, they have no way of knowing if you ordered successfully from the mint or not. Therefore you don't have a binding deal. If you do something dumb like sell the stuff on the BST afterwards they might ask you WTF is up. If you give them an order number and later back out, the worst that is likely to happen is that you'll get badmouthed here and likely get your ass kicked out of the circle of trust.
I can feel the pain from having people renege on their agreements. For the most part, I would say 86% of all my initial deals went very smoothly--even when prices jumped. And my hat is off to all those who knew a handshake was a handshake, even through a PM. The 15% who reneged, probably cost me 50 sets--they were usually multi box --where they had friends or family promise their sets to them--and then either the primary person reneged, or their downline reneged. Only 1 person pretended never to exist--never returned emails, PMs, or phone calls. All the others, who did renege for one reason or another, at least informed me of their intent.
I wont be suing anyone, I was disappointed in some folks that i knew on the boards, and some were newbies. But, honestly-the majority of those who entered into agreements with me--stood by their side of the deal, and i am fortunate to have done business with them.
My offer at the time was the highest on the boards, and included shipping fees--I tried to make it a win win for each party, I had no idea my high bid was low 5 days later.
<< <i>I can feel the pain from having people renege on their agreements. For the most part, I would say 86% of all my initial deals went very smoothly--even when prices jumped. And my hat is off to all those who knew a handshake was a handshake, even through a PM. The 15% who reneged, probably cost me 50 sets--they were usually multi box --where they had friends or family promise their sets to them--and then either the primary person reneged, or their downline reneged. Only 1 person pretended never to exist--never returned emails, PMs, or phone calls. All the others, who did renege for one reason or another, at least informed me of their intent.
I wont be suing anyone, I was disappointed in some folks that i knew on the boards, and some were newbies. But, honestly-the majority of those who entered into agreements with me--stood by their side of the deal, and i am fortunate to have done business with them.
My offer at the time was the highest on the boards, and included shipping fees--I tried to make it a win win for each party, I had no idea my high bid was low 5 days later. >>
I was glad to send the sets I agreed to send you. Thos whom did not should run and hide! Shame on you all! Next time put on you big boy [or girl] pants before you sit in front of the keyboard!
From "Professor" Mark Feld (previously posted on the dealer network and reposted here with Mark's permission):
"An enforceable contract requires a "meeting of the minds".
And in regard to a number of agreements pertaining to the sale of 25th Anniversary sets, it doesn't sound as if that was the case.
If a seller agreed to pre-sell sets, but a specific U.S. Mint order number was included in the agreement, in his mind, he would not be committed, unless his order got filled. And that's even if the buyer thought that the seller was committed, regardless. No meeting of the minds there.
I agree with the two gentlemen who posted the following:
"Every party that committed to sell me 25th Anniv sets (without a void clause for cancellations of orders) and had their orders cancelled I let off the hook ... no questions asked."
"I sold my measly (5) sets with a confirmation by direct on this system which included the language "contingent on fulfillment of my order by the Mint" along with my confirmation number. If the Mint cancels my order, there is no sale.
My position is that if a buyer requested and received a confirmation number and that confirmation number is cancelled, even if you did not include language similar to mine, then there is no sale. Why? Because the buyer was confirming for that specific 5 set group covered by that specific confirmation number. If the Mint cancels that order, then the confirmation number is no longer valid, and those five specific sets no longer exist.
If, on the other hand, the seller confirmed a number of sets without that confirmation number, then the sale is good regardless, and the seller must cover in the open market.""
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i> No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have! >>
What nonsense you are saying. Ever heard of the futures market, or short selling?
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i> No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have! >>
What nonsense you are saying. Ever heard of the futures market, or short selling? >>
Yep is called a futures CONTRACT! Well there goes that stupid excuse... now what can he tell the buyerr... my dog ate them!
<< <i> No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have! >>
What nonsense you are saying. Ever heard of the futures market, or short selling? >>
When you are talking about a physical asset deliverable in the future at specific price you are talking the forwards market, not the futures.
Edited to add: and that's one of the risks of the forwards market is the counterparts failing to deliver the physical assets.
Pretty simple: Just say your box had a damaged seal or your cat sharpened his claws on the box or whatever. End of story - no deal. Its not the right thing to do but thats not the argument here.
"My offer at the time was the highest on the boards, and included shipping fees--I tried to make it a win win for each party, I had no idea my high bid was low 5 days later. "
With all due respect, not only was I outbidding EVERYONE over on the BST board for quit sometime as far as I know before a bidder doubled his offer overnight to become the higher buyer at that time, BUT (AND THIS IS THE KEY), everyone who sold me sets on the BST board or anywhere else for that matter back at that time of $50 - $100/set premiums has received already, or will receive, a cash bonus from me (in my sole discretion) that will result in a final sale price to me higher than our agreed deal (in some cases, substantially higher). WHEN A GREAT WIMDFALL LIKE THIS COMES ALONG, I SIMPLY DO NOT THANK PEOPLE FOR BEING HONEST WITH HOLLOW WORDS ALONE, BUT I OPEN MY POCKETBOOK AND THANK THEM WITH SOMETHING THEY WILL TRULY APPRECIATE FOR THE HOLIDAYS... COLD HARD CASH!! And, granted, I have -0- legal obligation to do so nor has anyone asked for it.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>From "Professor" Mark Feld (previously posted on the dealer network and reposted here with Mark's permission):
My position is that if a buyer requested and received a confirmation number and that confirmation number is cancelled, even if you did not include language similar to mine, then there is no sale. Why? Because the buyer was confirming for that specific 5 set group covered by that specific confirmation number. If the Mint cancels that order, then the confirmation number is no longer valid, and those five specific sets no longer exist.
>>
I would say that if an order confirmation is required that prior to giving that number to the buyer, that you remind the buyer that deal is contingent upon the mint fulfilling the order. If the mint cancels the/my order for ANY reason then our deal is over/ended. It may be redundant but it's best to lay out the terms openly and in plain English so that there is no misunderstanding.
<< <i>Pretty simple: Just say your box had a damaged seal or your cat sharpened his claws on the box or whatever. End of story - no deal. Its not the right thing to do but thats not the argument here. >>
Agreed, not the issue here. Issue seems to be if there was a "legal contract" Dont mater to me legal or not. But I tell you what. I'd pay any dealer for a list of board users that backed out of their commitments on these sets here
Wondercoin.........you are a business man........you offered to buy at a certain price............sellers contacted you and made an agreement...........you paid and hopefully they delivered..........end of story
<< <i>You would just hear the "I had to back out because my dad/mom/friend/brother/sister/dog looked on ebay and saw they were going for more so they backed out on me" excuses come into play. Oh, hold it. We already have heard those in some of the threads from the pre-flippers >>
Yeah, and they are all pathetic .
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<< <i>Wondercoin.........you are a business man........you offered to buy at a certain price............sellers contacted you and made an agreement...........you paid and hopefully they delivered..........end of story >>
you gotta love this sHirap! So what if a buyer paid wondercoin for something and did'nt get it? oh well sorry buyer .. your a buyer!.... jessh! ... no experience necessary to contribute on these boards... and you can back out of any commitment too!.. Go_ help us all.. The boards are starting to sound like the occupy protesters have taken over.
Dice21... True ... but then why ever treat a business client to dinner, or to a golf game if that is your bag, or whatever? Isn't there also an element of "goodwill" to conducting any business?
I do deals all the time with about 2%-10% spreads. If a deal result in upwards of a 50%-75% spread, why not consider a bonus payment in your discretion? It's a nice touch ... no?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Pretty simple: Just say your box had a damaged seal or your cat sharpened his claws on the box or whatever. End of story - no deal. Its not the right thing to do but thats not the argument here. >>
Agreed, not the issue here. Issue seems to be if there was a "legal contract" Dont mater to me legal or not. But I tell you what. I'd pay any dealer for a list of board users that backed out of their commitments on these sets here
I'm just sayin.. and it would be money well spent >>
Hahaha maybe we can have that one last ASE 25th thread
<< <i>Pretty simple: Just say your box had a damaged seal or your cat sharpened his claws on the box or whatever. End of story - no deal. Its not the right thing to do but thats not the argument here. >>
Agreed, not the issue here. Issue seems to be if there was a "legal contract" Dont mater to me legal or not. But I tell you what. I'd pay any dealer for a list of board users that backed out of their commitments on these sets here
I'm just sayin.. and it would be money well spent >>
Hahaha maybe we can have that one last ASE 25th thread >>
No that cant be the subject of a thread on thse boards..... been there done that... Buyer and SELLER beware now!
Our hosts made it perfectly clear that there will be no outing of anyone for bad deals. It is unfortunate that renegers will get away "free", but i enjoy these boards, and intend to stay on them.
And I did what i could do assist most of my buyers, some wouldnt budge on their deals at all--saying a deal was a deal, period. And some i hope to meet someday and take to dinner.
No......not saying any deal should be backed out of...........on the contrary..........I am saying a deal was made..........live with it and man up.............IF wondercoin wished to give any extra it is soley at his discretion and under no circumstances should he feel obligated and should not do so simply because of peer pressure.............I believe him doing so is simply goodwill and KUDOS
<< <i>Our hosts made it perfectly clear that there will be no outing of anyone for bad deals. It is unfortunate that renegers will get away "free", but i enjoy these boards, and intend to stay on them.
And I did what i could do assist most of my buyers, some wouldnt budge on their deals at all--saying a deal was a deal, period. And some i hope to meet someday and take to dinner. >>
Hecck.. I'm someone that sent you sets that I commited to you..... and if we meet I'll buy the drinks! Too many here that are beyond their comfort level. Strech to spend the $1500. on 5 sets and have starry eyes when looking at $4K if they back out... Shame,shame,shame!
an unsigned promise to conduct business in the future is not a contract. It is a gentlemen's agreement that should be honored but cannot be upheld in a court of law.
It can be weighed in a court of public opinion, but only if the public is allowed to be informed about those that do not honor their agreement.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Comments
<< <i>Well, it is 4 yrs and 11 months until the 30th Anniv. Set. They have time to work out the pre-sale details. >>
Mintage will be two million, household limit will be one for the first four weeks, No demand, no price, no value. All fixed to prevent the problems from the 25th anniversary set from recurring
<< <i>It is irrelevant that the mint didn't fulfill the order. The only way it would be relevant is if were in the contract. >>
There was no contract. Just a series of emails discussing a possible sale.
The potential buyer never paid any money, never got a signed agreement.
If you defended by claiming that you were not able to perform because you were unable to acquire the item you contracted to sell [i.e. because the mint cancelled your order], tough nuggies for you. You will lose.
Whether it makes economic sense to sue is another matter given the time money and effort required to do so.
This type of case would be good for TV, ala Judge Judy.
<< <i>
<< <i>It is irrelevant that the mint didn't fulfill the order. The only way it would be relevant is if were in the contract. >>
There was no contract. Just a series of emails discussing a possible sale.
The potential buyer never paid any money, never got a signed agreement. >>
It is a binding contract. Non delivery by the mint is a valid defense. Most contract cases only allow jurisdiction in the domicile of the defendant, or where the contract was entered into.
<< <i>
<< <i>It is irrelevant that the mint didn't fulfill the order. The only way it would be relevant is if were in the contract. >>
There was no contract. Just a series of emails discussing a possible sale.
The potential buyer never paid any money, never got a signed agreement. >>
You don't pay money until goods are delivered. Offer and acceptance. Binding contract. Knowing how to google doesn't make you a lawyer. Please stop.
<< <i>With the order number the buyer can check on the status the same way you can and he will know if it was canceled or if you took delivery. >>
Yes, if it was supplied to the buyer. If it wasn't, buyer is going to have a pretty tough time proving anything. Then there's the damages issue...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It is irrelevant that the mint didn't fulfill the order. The only way it would be relevant is if were in the contract. >>
There was no contract. Just a series of emails discussing a possible sale.
The potential buyer never paid any money, never got a signed agreement. >>
You don't pay money until goods are delivered. Offer and acceptance. Binding contract. Knowing how to google doesn't make you a lawyer. Please stop. >>
OK Perry Mason!
<< <i>No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have! >>
That's not always true, but an important aspect here is that the buyer knew (or should have) that there was a decent chance the seller would not be able to acquire the sets because of the limited quantity and the huge demand. Therefore, it would not be reasonable to rely on the seller's promise to sell one at the agreed-upon rate and then pre-sell that set to someone else (which would likely need to be the case in order to establish lost profits/damages).
<< <i>If you enter into a contract to unconditionally sell to Joe Barnes for a set price an item [25th ASE set, car, etc.] that you do not own/possess at the time you enter the contract, if you fail to perform the contract Joe Barnes can sue you for breach of contract and recover from you the damages your breach of the contract has caused him.
If you defended by claiming that you were not able to perform because you were unable to acquire the item you contracted to sell [i.e. because the mint cancelled your order], tough nuggies for you. You will lose.
Whether it makes economic sense to sue is another matter given the time money and effort required to do so.
This type of case would be good for TV, ala Judge Judy. >>
So do you judge either of the two such situations presented above as being entered into unconditionally?
<< <i>This looks like a big scare tactic to me, no way this would get to litigation. From what I can remember from my law school contracts class last year, Impossibility or Impracticability would likely be the defenses that you would want to use in court. No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have! >>
Farmers sometimes forward contract their corn crop. If they can't deliver a crop then they have to go out and buy corn on the open market to satisfy the contract. There is no law against selling something that you can reasonably expect to get.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It is irrelevant that the mint didn't fulfill the order. The only way it would be relevant is if were in the contract. >>
There was no contract. Just a series of emails discussing a possible sale.
The potential buyer never paid any money, never got a signed agreement. >>
You don't pay money until goods are delivered. Offer and acceptance. Binding contract. Knowing how to google doesn't make you a lawyer. Please stop. >>
I'm glad it doesn't woirk this way on eBay. Or Heritage. Or Teletrade. Or David Lawrence.
I pay.......then they ship. Not the other way around.
Heck, even the US Mint made me pay before they'd ship.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>With the order number the buyer can check on the status the same way you can and he will know if it was canceled or if you took delivery. >>
Yes, if it was supplied to the buyer. If it wasn't, buyer is going to have a pretty tough time proving anything. Then there's the damages issue... >>
If no order number was supplied, then you have no deal.
Can you enter into a contract with a email address? If my email is 'igotsets@yahoo.com' is that enough to perfect a contract? And what jurisdiction would a suit be filed in? The buyers or the sellers?
Oh, hold it. We already have heard those in some of the threads from the pre-flippers
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>With the order number the buyer can check on the status the same way you can and he will know if it was canceled or if you took delivery. >>
Yes, if it was supplied to the buyer. If it wasn't, buyer is going to have a pretty tough time proving anything. Then there's the damages issue... >>
If no order number was supplied, then you have no deal. >>
I cannot believe the legal issue comes down to that point.
<< <i>If the seller truly had an order cancelled then there is no way it would hold up in court. It's sad how crazy these are making people...I just want it all to be over. >>
I agree as the contract/agreement was for 1 unique order number that the seller had supplied to GoldMart.
JMO . . . I'm no lawyer
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
I called a lawyer I knew back stateside who told me that in order for a contract to be valid there would need to be a meeting of the minds. That means that both parties have to sign it. If both parties did not sign it then there's no meeting of the minds and as such, no contract. That's a Palm Beach Cnty lawyer. I don't know if a different geographical area would yield a different response.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I guess part of this could be "what is a contract". I was nearly engaged in litigation after I was ripped off for tens of thousands of dollars from an arizona web company years ago. I felt I had been taken advantage of as the communications between us were horrible, espcially after 9/11 as I was not even in a metro area of the country I was living in ( I was outsourcing work to an American company since I was an American and a Polack
I called a lawyer I knew back stateside who told me that in order for a contract to be valid there would need to be a meeting of the minds. That means that both parties have to sign it. If both parties did not sign it then there's no meeting of the minds and as such, no contract. That's a Palm Beach Cnty lawyer. I don't know if a different geographical area would yield a different response. >>
That was always my understanding, a signed contract, even better if notarized.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
When negotiating these types of deals it is very important to be specific about the terms. If there was no condition about actually receiving the coins from the mint, the seller would rightly expect the seller to buy the coins on the open market to satisfy the terms of the deal, but he would be a jerk to do so. The seller should have conditioned the deal on a successful order with the Mint, especially knowing that the demand would be high and the historically craptastic performance of the Mint's ordering system for high demand items.
<< <i>You would just hear the "I had to back out because my dad/mom/friend/brother/sister/dog looked on ebay and saw they were going for more so they backed out on me" excuses come into play.
Oh, hold it. We already have heard those in some of the threads from the pre-flippers
Agreed. The one I was given on a $2300 back out was my transmission went out.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>With the order number the buyer can check on the status the same way you can and he will know if it was canceled or if you took delivery. >>
Yes, if it was supplied to the buyer. If it wasn't, buyer is going to have a pretty tough time proving anything. Then there's the damages issue... >>
If no order number was supplied, then you have no deal. >>
I cannot believe the legal issue comes down to that point. >>
Isn't that what the MCM offer comes down to? It is the way I read it. Also one was required to submit his order number within a certain time frame. The Sego offer is conditional upon your being able to get a set from the mint. The Goldmart situation in the OP appears to be different from the other 2.
Unless you give say MCM an order number, they have no way of knowing if you ordered successfully from the mint or not. Therefore you don't have a binding deal. If you do something dumb like sell the stuff on the BST afterwards they might ask you WTF is up. If you give them an order number and later back out, the worst that is likely to happen is that you'll get badmouthed here and likely get your ass kicked out of the circle of trust.
Atoms will become ions once you guys carve an electron off of it.
I wont be suing anyone, I was disappointed in some folks that i knew on the boards, and some were newbies. But, honestly-the majority of those who entered into agreements with me--stood by their side of the deal, and i am fortunate to have done business with them.
My offer at the time was the highest on the boards, and included shipping fees--I tried to make it a win win for each party, I had no idea my high bid was low 5 days later.
<< <i>I can feel the pain from having people renege on their agreements. For the most part, I would say 86% of all my initial deals went very smoothly--even when prices jumped. And my hat is off to all those who knew a handshake was a handshake, even through a PM. The 15% who reneged, probably cost me 50 sets--they were usually multi box --where they had friends or family promise their sets to them--and then either the primary person reneged, or their downline reneged. Only 1 person pretended never to exist--never returned emails, PMs, or phone calls. All the others, who did renege for one reason or another, at least informed me of their intent.
I wont be suing anyone, I was disappointed in some folks that i knew on the boards, and some were newbies. But, honestly-the majority of those who entered into agreements with me--stood by their side of the deal, and i am fortunate to have done business with them.
My offer at the time was the highest on the boards, and included shipping fees--I tried to make it a win win for each party, I had no idea my high bid was low 5 days later. >>
I was glad to send the sets I agreed to send you. Thos whom did not should run and hide! Shame on you all! Next time put on you big boy [or girl] pants before you sit in front of the keyboard!
"An enforceable contract requires a "meeting of the minds".
And in regard to a number of agreements pertaining to the sale of 25th
Anniversary sets, it doesn't sound as if that was the case.
If a seller agreed to pre-sell sets, but a specific U.S. Mint order number
was included in the agreement, in his mind, he would not be committed,
unless his order got filled. And that's even if the buyer thought that the
seller was committed, regardless. No meeting of the minds there.
I agree with the two gentlemen who posted the following:
"Every party that committed to sell me 25th Anniv sets (without a void
clause for cancellations of orders) and had their orders cancelled I let
off the hook ... no questions asked."
"I sold my measly (5) sets with a confirmation by direct on this system
which included the language "contingent on fulfillment of my order by the
Mint" along with my confirmation number. If the Mint cancels my order,
there is no sale.
My position is that if a buyer requested and received a confirmation
number and that confirmation number is cancelled, even if you did not
include language similar to mine, then there is no sale. Why? Because the
buyer was confirming for that specific 5 set group covered by that
specific confirmation number. If the Mint cancels that order, then the
confirmation number is no longer valid, and those five specific sets no
longer exist.
If, on the other hand, the seller confirmed a number of sets without that
confirmation number, then the sale is good regardless, and the seller
must cover in the open market.""
Wondercoin
<< <i> No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have! >>
What nonsense you are saying. Ever heard of the futures market, or short selling?
<< <i>
<< <i> No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have! >>
What nonsense you are saying. Ever heard of the futures market, or short selling? >>
Yep is called a futures CONTRACT! Well there goes that stupid excuse... now what can he tell the buyerr... my dog ate them!
<< <i>
<< <i> No way a valid contract should be found here im my opinion since the seller did not have the physical sets at the time of the contract, you cant contract for something you don't have! >>
What nonsense you are saying. Ever heard of the futures market, or short selling? >>
When you are talking about a physical asset deliverable in the future at specific price you are talking the forwards market, not the futures.
Edited to add: and that's one of the risks of the forwards market is the counterparts failing to deliver the physical assets.
the argument here.
I don't see a lawsuit based on a couple of emails or private messages getting very far here.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
With all due respect, not only was I outbidding EVERYONE over on the BST board for quit sometime as far as I know before a bidder doubled his offer overnight to become the higher buyer at that time, BUT (AND THIS IS THE KEY), everyone who sold me sets on the BST board or anywhere else for that matter back at that time of $50 - $100/set premiums has received already, or will receive, a cash bonus from me (in my sole discretion) that will result in a final sale price to me higher than our agreed deal (in some cases, substantially higher). WHEN A GREAT WIMDFALL LIKE THIS COMES ALONG, I SIMPLY DO NOT THANK PEOPLE FOR BEING HONEST WITH HOLLOW WORDS ALONE, BUT I OPEN MY POCKETBOOK AND THANK THEM WITH SOMETHING THEY WILL TRULY APPRECIATE FOR THE HOLIDAYS... COLD HARD CASH!! And, granted, I have -0- legal obligation to do so nor has anyone asked for it.
Wondercoin
<< <i>From "Professor" Mark Feld (previously posted on the dealer network and reposted here with Mark's permission):
My position is that if a buyer requested and received a confirmation
number and that confirmation number is cancelled, even if you did not
include language similar to mine, then there is no sale. Why? Because the
buyer was confirming for that specific 5 set group covered by that
specific confirmation number. If the Mint cancels that order, then the
confirmation number is no longer valid, and those five specific sets no
longer exist.
>>
I would say that if an order confirmation is required that prior to giving that number to the buyer, that you remind the buyer that deal is contingent upon the mint fulfilling the order. If the mint cancels the/my order for ANY reason then our deal is over/ended. It may be redundant but it's best to lay out the terms openly and in plain English so that there is no misunderstanding.
<< <i>Pretty simple: Just say your box had a damaged seal or your cat sharpened his claws on the box or whatever. End of story - no deal. Its not the right thing to do but thats not
the argument here. >>
Agreed, not the issue here. Issue seems to be if there was a "legal contract" Dont mater to me legal or not. But I tell you what. I'd pay any dealer for a list of board users that backed out of their commitments on these sets here
I'm just sayin.. and it would be money well spent
<< <i>You would just hear the "I had to back out because my dad/mom/friend/brother/sister/dog looked on ebay and saw they were going for more so they backed out on me" excuses come into play.
Oh, hold it. We already have heard those in some of the threads from the pre-flippers
Yeah, and they are all pathetic .
<< <i>Wondercoin.........you are a business man........you offered to buy at a certain price............sellers contacted you and made an agreement...........you paid and hopefully they delivered..........end of story >>
you gotta love this sHirap! So what if a buyer paid wondercoin for something and did'nt get it? oh well sorry buyer .. your a buyer!.... jessh! ... no experience necessary to contribute on these boards... and you can back out of any commitment too!.. Go_ help us all.. The boards are starting to sound like the occupy protesters have taken over.
I do deals all the time with about 2%-10% spreads. If a deal result in upwards of a 50%-75% spread, why not consider a bonus payment in your discretion? It's a nice touch ... no?
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>Pretty simple: Just say your box had a damaged seal or your cat sharpened his claws on the box or whatever. End of story - no deal. Its not the right thing to do but thats not
the argument here. >>
Agreed, not the issue here. Issue seems to be if there was a "legal contract" Dont mater to me legal or not. But I tell you what. I'd pay any dealer for a list of board users that backed out of their commitments on these sets here
I'm just sayin.. and it would be money well spent
Hahaha maybe we can have that one last ASE 25th thread
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Pretty simple: Just say your box had a damaged seal or your cat sharpened his claws on the box or whatever. End of story - no deal. Its not the right thing to do but thats not
the argument here. >>
Agreed, not the issue here. Issue seems to be if there was a "legal contract" Dont mater to me legal or not. But I tell you what. I'd pay any dealer for a list of board users that backed out of their commitments on these sets here
I'm just sayin.. and it would be money well spent
Hahaha maybe we can have that one last ASE 25th thread
No that cant be the subject of a thread on thse boards..... been there done that... Buyer and SELLER beware now!
And I did what i could do assist most of my buyers, some wouldnt budge on their deals at all--saying a deal was a deal, period. And some i hope to meet someday and take to dinner.
<< <i>Our hosts made it perfectly clear that there will be no outing of anyone for bad deals. It is unfortunate that renegers will get away "free", but i enjoy these boards, and intend to stay on them.
And I did what i could do assist most of my buyers, some wouldnt budge on their deals at all--saying a deal was a deal, period. And some i hope to meet someday and take to dinner. >>
Hecck.. I'm someone that sent you sets that I commited to you..... and if we meet I'll buy the drinks! Too many here that are beyond their comfort level. Strech to spend the $1500. on 5 sets and have starry eyes when looking at $4K if they back out... Shame,shame,shame!
It can be weighed in a court of public opinion, but only if the public is allowed to be informed about those that do not honor their agreement.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>Will We See Someone Get Sued for not upholding commitment to sell?
I sure hope so! It will add to the fun.
I couldn't read past this for the tears in my eyes. I may come back with a more serious response after this bout of laughter I so enjoyed.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I agreed to sell them to you - I did not agree to mail them to you. Come pick them up - I live in Queensland... >>
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces