Chaos in Greece

SereneDude

Greece will, in all probability default within the next week.
The weaker Euro nations will follow shortly thereafter.
Germans, who weren't 100% convinced about the Euro in the first place, will pull out of the Euro.
Financial chaos will ensue in Europe and then here in the USA.
So why isn't gold going crazy?

derryb

Cause nobody believes you.....yet.

mrearlygold

You mean, ......there's no more......... .....discussions?

cohodk

So why isn't gold going crazy?

How would gold protect YOU in such a situation?

SereneDude

<< <i>So why isn't gold going crazy?

How would gold protect YOU in such a situation? >>


Didn't say anything about protection.

Spooly

The first Black Swan event?

cohodk

<< <i>

<< <i>So why isn't gold going crazy?

How would gold protect YOU in such a situation? >>


Didn't say anything about protection. >>



Then why own gold?

OPA

<< <i>Greece will, in all probability default within the next week.
The weaker Euro nations will follow shortly thereafter.
Germans, who weren't 100% convinced about the Euro in the first place, will pull out of the Euro.
Financial chaos will ensue in Europe and then here in the USA.
So why isn't gold going crazy? >>



Forgot to take your anti paranoia pill again?

dpoole

I think Papandreou feels up against the wall. The rioters are getting all the publicity. It makes some sense from his point of view to call their bluff and call out the Greeks to get high-profile, public public backing for doing what has to be done (e.g. cooperate with Germany and France to save the Euro).

Of course, the Greeks may all agree with the rioters, that they should still be able to leech off the state, with all the money that's been stolen by the evil banks.

In that event, the clothes are definitely off the emperor. It'll be the early signs that the general population of the West is too far gone into living off someone else's money to save, and is willing to sacrifice the economic system that brung em.

derryb

It shoud be decided by the stake-holders - the people of Greece. Like you and I they can't depend on their politicians to be their voice. The people of Iceland said "no" and they will be better for it.

stevek

<<< So why isn't gold going crazy? >>>

Gold has already gone "crazy" over the past few years. Situations such as this have already been anticipated as a possibility.

Yes, if Greece defaults, there may be an increase in gold, but I don't believe it would be a significant increase at this point.

pf70collector

Greece will get their answer through referendum. This is the only way Greece will peacefully resolve this upcoming default. Let the Greek people decide, not their government. I think the Greek people will vote for default. Their tax system is not enforcable and it needs to be fixed if they want to survive as a nation. Iceland said no to the banks, Greece will do the same. Other EU countries might do the same. If other EU countries do the same, I expect the DOW to plummet and it will not come back like it did in 2008 no matter what the FED does. Referendum called

mhammerman

"I think the Greek people will vote for default."

It's hard to really know what kind of deal was worked out between the international banksters and Greece but it obviously wasn't a particularly good deal for Greece or they would have been all over it. The banksters and the foreign govs no doubt are working hand in hand to hose the Greek citizenry into paying big time taxes and relenquishing the peoples benefits in order to pay back the loans that will keep them solvent for a short period of time...it doesn't fix the problem with the Greek financial situation at all it simply offers the Greek gov the opportunity to pull a rabbit they don't have out of a hat that they don't own.

The net result of getting the loan is that the populace would likely lose a considerable amount of freedom so the Greek gov can pay off the money bag men. The banks and govs across the world thought they had this thing lined out to where all the boyz were going to get a piece of the action and the govs could count on a little income but the boyz look like they got shut out at the window, No Race, no bets taken.

The other side of the coin is that most international bankster boyz probably have some paper that will take a hickey because of contagion with the Greek debt that is going belly up. So the tables really turned for the banksters, first they don't get to place a bet and second, they get to take a hickey...bummer. The rejection of the bail out will likely begin the Euro and EU dominoes falling and then we will begin the fireworks extravaganza.

I too think that the Greek people will go the way of Iceland and tell them to pound sand and eat fist. Only a fool would get in bed with the modern day bankster boyz as there is only one likely outcome.

JMHO

Got Gold?

cohodk

What would be the outcome to the Greek people if they did default? Its easy to say they should tell the bankers to pound sand, and I agree, but what are the consequences?

derryb

<< <i>What would be the outcome to the Greek people if they did default? Its easy to say they should tell the bankers to pound sand, and I agree, but what are the consequences? >>


A little less debt in the world.

cohodk

That reduction in debt would be but a drop in the bucket, but what would be the consequences to the Greek people?

mhammerman

"...would be the consequences to the Greek people? "

They would have their benefits cut and their entitlements reduced. They will have to reissue the drachma and it may not buy what it used to so there would be some inflation and everyone would have to live with less. The alternative is to end up at that point anyway but still be in hock to the banksters. If they reject the bail out then they would at least have a chance at self sufficiency through a enduring a period of having less as would come from the default, so called "austerity". If they took the bail out then they would be locked into the same scenario anyway but there would be little chance that it could get better in the near future and ultimately, in my opinion, they would just be putting off the inevitable, buying a little time so to speak. So the question becomes "Do you want to have austerity for a while and we dig ourselves out of this hole by our own means through having a bit less for now or do you want to have austerity anyway and not get out of this hole for a few generations?"

Interesting topic that will likely be addressed by a number of countries in the near future, maybe even our own. Thanks for the discussion.

JMHO

SereneDude

Yahoo News Article on Greek Default

OnlyGoldIsMoney

Greece has run up a huge debt they cannot and/or don't want to pay back.

In fine socialist fashion they are looking for someone to blame while demanding more loans as an entitlement. If I recall correctly they were (or are) still trying to shake down Germany for WWII. While they are at it they might as well blame Iran for the Persians/Medes burning Athens in 480 BC. Why should their be any statute of limitations for guilt trips?

Let's have the vote. If they turn down the debt deal let them default and sink/swim on their own. Enough of this Euro welfare.

jmski52

They would have their benefits cut and their entitlements reduced.

If the government defaults, it means that all previous debts and agreements made by that government are no longer binding. I take it to mean that all government pensions and entitlements could be re-negotiated, all sovereign debt could be re-negotiated, all outstanding debt and currency would seek a new level on the international markets, and the end result would be that anytime that Greece or anyone holding Greek money wanted to buy something or set up a line of credit, the price would necessarily be higher. Probably significantly higher.

That being the case, the Greek people would either have to become more productive internally, or they would live less prosperously. There aren't any other ways to go.

Who's going to trust you with money if you don't want to work and you've got a reputation for not paying your debts back? Not I, said the Little Red Hen.

SereneDude

<< <i>They would have their benefits cut and their entitlements reduced.

If the government defaults, it means that all previous debts and agreements made by that government are no longer binding. I take it to mean that all government pensions and entitlements could be re-negotiated, all sovereign debt could be re-negotiated, all outstanding debt and currency would seek a new level on the international markets, and the end result would be that anytime that Greece or anyone holding Greek money wanted to buy something or set up a line of credit, the price would necessarily be higher. Probably significantly higher.

That being the case, the Greek people would either have to become more productive internally, or they would live less prosperously. There aren't any other ways to go.

Who's going to trust you with money if you don't want to work and you've got a reputation for not paying your debts back? Not I, said the Little Red Hen. >>


Whatever the Greeks decide, they are in for some hard times ahead for a generation at least.
If they default and go off the Euro, the only way they will be able to borrow money is to pay usurious interest rate and even then they'll be hard pressed to find lenders.
The party is most definitely over for the Greeks. 2 month paid vacations, early retirement with a big fat pension and all their other perks will be history. Of course, this won't go over easy with a population accustomed to the free lunch.
But the bottom line is that the Greek standard of living will decline, whether they take the bailout or not.

cohodk

<< <i>

<< <i>They would have their benefits cut and their entitlements reduced.

If the government defaults, it means that all previous debts and agreements made by that government are no longer binding. I take it to mean that all government pensions and entitlements could be re-negotiated, all sovereign debt could be re-negotiated, all outstanding debt and currency would seek a new level on the international markets, and the end result would be that anytime that Greece or anyone holding Greek money wanted to buy something or set up a line of credit, the price would necessarily be higher. Probably significantly higher.

That being the case, the Greek people would either have to become more productive internally, or they would live less prosperously. There aren't any other ways to go.

Who's going to trust you with money if you don't want to work and you've got a reputation for not paying your debts back? Not I, said the Little Red Hen. >>


Whatever the Greeks decide, they are in for some hard times ahead for a generation at least.
If they default and go off the Euro, the only way they will be able to borrow money is to pay usurious interest rate and even then they'll be hard pressed to find lenders.
The party is most definitely over for the Greeks. 2 month paid vacations, early retirement with a big fat pension and all their other perks will be history. Of course, this won't go over easy with a population accustomed to the free lunch.
But the bottom line is that the Greek standard of living will decline, whether they take the bailout or not. >>





Yes, good discussion. So is it better for the Greeks to leave or stay with the Euro? Should they try to get their act together with the backing of the EU or get their act together on their own? This is the question the Greeks are relectant to answer.

jmski52

the bottom line is that the Greek standard of living will decline, whether they take the bailout or not.

Paul Ryan was right the other day. Living standards don't have to decline and the economic pie doesn't have to be static.

Maybe they will stop penalizing their producers. Nah, it'll probably take more than loss of benefits and a reduction in the standard of living to get there.

It will take a massive change in the work ethic and rewarding of savers. Just like here.

hhmag70

<< <i>
The party is most definitely over for the Greeks. 2 month paid vacations, early retirement with a big fat pension and all their other perks will be history. Of course, this won't go over easy with a population accustomed to the free lunch. >>




Sounds like the same benefits they give in Washington.

Justacommeman

The Greeks should make the Baklava their national currency. It makes more and more sense as I think about it. MJ

SereneDude

<< <i>

<< <i>
The party is most definitely over for the Greeks. 2 month paid vacations, early retirement with a big fat pension and all their other perks will be history. Of course, this won't go over easy with a population accustomed to the free lunch. >>




Sounds like the same benefits they give in Washington. >>


Indeed it does. If they keep up the economic bumbling in DC, the bell my toll for them also.

DrBuster

Just a ruffle of the NWO feathers while the new rules get put in place. Nothing to see here. Move along....buy silver.

dpoole

If they default and resurrect the drachma. They'll be back in charge of their currency and can devalue it at will.

Argentina has made a cottage industry of bubbling living standards and perks and then defaulting, only to rebubble again with impunity. Apparently the world remains too interested in Agentina's soy beans to punish them for long. Maybe Greece can just do the same thing packing in tourists and selling olive oil.

KUCH

<< <i>Greece has run up a huge debt they cannot and/or don't want to pay back.

In fine socialist fashion they are looking for someone to blame while demanding more loans as an entitlement. If I recall correctly they were (or are) still trying to shake down Germany for WWII. While they are at it they might as well blame Iran for the Persians/Medes burning Athens in 480 BC. Why should their be any statute of limitations for guilt trips?

Let's have the vote. If they turn down the debt deal let them default and sink/swim on their own. Enough of this Euro welfare. >>



I BEG TO DIFFER! Do you know the Greek people? Have you ever been to Greece? Greece is a proud, family, religious country. It's the beginning of DEMOCRACY!!!!! The Greek people know democracy, and they don't like "giving" their money to the government in the form of taxes. I agree!!!!

I was just there 1 month ago, didn't see 1 homeless person, didn't see one begger, didn't see crime, dirty streets!!!!!!

They want the government to govern...period. They don't want the government to grow!!!! The Greek people will say NO to the bailout, as they should.

Some say our balance sheet is worse than Greece..... What say you?

OPA

Not to deflate your tourist perception of Greece, but in reality a good percentage of Greeks are either Communists or Socialists who believe the Government should take care of them. I've been to Greece many a times in my life, but not recently. I have serious doubts, that their mentality, since the 1920's, has changed that drastically.

derryb

<< <i>That reduction in debt would be but a drop in the bucket, but what would be the consequences to the Greek people? >>


revelation and re-birth as a society

KUCH

Opa, you must be Greek with a tag sign like that. Opa means cheers, here's to you in Greek, right? I understand your thinking, I think. Socialist wish to give money to run large government programs, to pay for society. Greek's hate to give their money to the government. It's the government that is socialist
not the people.

Here in the good ole USA, we have a Marxist government, it doesn't mean we a Marxists.

Bottom line, we'll see when the Greek people vote up or down for the referendum. If they vote to take the bailout then the people are Socialist, if it's thumbs down then they're some form of something. "Capitalists"?

THISISME

<< <i> It will take a massive change in the work ethic and rewarding of savers. Just like here. >>



Amen to that

derryb

It is a sad state of affairs when your survival is dependent on someone else's willingness to loan you money.

stevek

That is correct - it is about survival...in the manner in which a modern population wants to survive. Unless a society is either almost totally self-sufficient or is highly agrarian, then when their financial system collapses, and nobody wants to give them any credit and their printed money is basically worthless...how are they going to get the products to survive and function as a modern society? The answer is they won't, and I think many in the US do not fully understand how calamitious is a situation like this to a country such as this.

It is not that hard to envision this potential catastrophe, because it seems to happen in Africa on a regular basis. The only difference for Greece is that it would be folks starving without electricity in their homes with a household full of non-functioning modern electrical devices and no fuel for their cars, versus those living in African huts. Frankly, considering the meager existence of some of these people in Africa, the Africans can likely cope with this type of situation better than in a modern urban area...and of course sometimes populations in Africa get decimated or they migrate to other countries.

So the end result of a financial collapse of Greece might be constant boatloads of food relief having to come in to Greece from other countries, a mass migration of the Greeks to other countries somewhere, or massive deaths if maybe due to starvation and malnutrition, but more likely of disease which can rapidly propagate in a situation such as this.

If it's only Greece, I would have to believe that these catastrophic events would be very unlikely. However, what if it spreads to other countries and the whole modern financial system gets overwhelmed? History should be a guide and a warning that horrific wars and death have occurred from circumstances which can get out of control, and tragic scenarios become reality. Those who forget the past, are condemned to repeat it.

It's still not too late if the Greek people readily and gladly accept the necessary austerity measures. Unfortunately, socialism creates a society of spoiled brats who don't don't wish to accept these needed cutbacks and living within their means from a lifetime of government handouts. Socialism truly is a disease to a healthy society...and in November 2012 we will have a choice, in my opinion, between socialism and capitalism - I do hope we make the right choice.

OnlyGoldIsMoney

<< <i>

<< <i>Greece has run up a huge debt they cannot and/or don't want to pay back.

In fine socialist fashion they are looking for someone to blame while demanding more loans as an entitlement. If I recall correctly they were (or are) still trying to shake down Germany for WWII. While they are at it they might as well blame Iran for the Persians/Medes burning Athens in 480 BC. Why should their be any statute of limitations for guilt trips?

Let's have the vote. If they turn down the debt deal let them default and sink/swim on their own. Enough of this Euro welfare. >>



I BEG TO DIFFER! Do you know the Greek people? Have you ever been to Greece? Greece is a proud, family, religious country. It's the beginning of DEMOCRACY!!!!! The Greek people know democracy, and they don't like "giving" their money to the government in the form of taxes. I agree!!!!

I was just there 1 month ago, didn't see 1 homeless person, didn't see one begger, didn't see crime, dirty streets!!!!!!

They want the government to govern...period. They don't want the government to grow!!!! The Greek people will say NO to the bailout, as they should.

Some say our balance sheet is worse than Greece..... What say you? >>



You beg to differ but don't contest my main points. Sure, the Athenians founded democracy and some stalwart city states stood up to the Persians.

That was 2,500 years ago. Yesterday's glories won't help us today.

The issue is not faded glory, family, religion or homelessness. Greece has run up a huge debt and they are trying to play victim. They shamelessly try to shake down the Germans for more by bringing up the Third Reich. They are unwilling to live within their means and the consequences of their past borrowing. Their past reporting on government spending borders on fraud. Their collective demeanor is that of the belligerent panhandler.

The Eurozone has offered them a bailout with the bond bonders (the ones who lent money to Greece) taking a major haircut. Voting "no" is a continuation of blaming someone else for their problems. Take the deal offered or leave it - just live with the consequences. Taking the deal means austerity measures for years to come (no more civil servants retiring in their early 50's). Turning it down means going it alone.

Oh yeah, the USA balance sheet is perhaps worse. The issue is that Greece cannot service their debt. The USA can.

jmski52

It's still not too late if the Greek people readily and gladly accept the necessary austerity measures. Unfortunately, socialism creates a society of spoiled brats who don't don't wish to accept these needed cutbacks and living within their means from a lifetime of government handouts.

It's not just about accepting less. It's about actually showing up for work and doing something. Day in, day out - you may not have the most prestigious job or the highest paying job, but if you show up for work and then actually do what you are being paid to do in a day's time - then you are a contributor. The Greeks, and the US will both have to decide if they are going to work, or not.

The only difference between Greece and the US is that Greece is at the front of the default line, and the US is near the back. The balance sheets don't look much different in terms of percentages, only in terms of magnitude.

DoubleEagle59

I heard the other day on the radio that one major hospital in Athens has 14 gardeners on staff!!

Salary and benefits for 14 of them!!

If you think this is alarming, the end of the news piece stated the hospital didn't even have a garden, just a concrete parking lot!!

I'm sure the 14 gardeners are family members of who ever did the hiring at this hospital.

This sums up how the Greek system works.

pf70collector

At the end of World War II all the European economies basically collapsed and were rebuild by the Marshall Plan. The problem today, The U.S. is no position itself to help with European economies that will collapse after the domino defaults occur. The U.S needs to rebuild its own destroyed manufacturing base. Printing to infinity will not work. Will we see an end to a global economy, where countries are self sustaining and providing everything for their own citizens. The U.S. pre Fed seemed to do very well on its own. Exporting more than importing.

derryb

Debt has got to be purged from the system. Replacing it with new, greater debt is not the answer. Refinancing a loan that can not be met only invites later trouble.

The world is not experiencing an economic crisis, it is a debt crisis and it will take down economies if not dealt with properly.

pf70collector

Greek PM backs off plans for referendum

Looks like the banksters will control Greece and its people.



International lenders are demanding that Athens raise taxes, sell off state-owned companies and slash government spending, which would mean firing tens of thousands of state workers.

They would have to fire state workers also if they defaulted. Not sure they would need to sell off state owned companies.

derryb

sometimes its best to just start over