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"Here is something to think about..."

SwampboySwampboy Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭✭
from an email received over the weekend from Angel Dee's Coins and Collectibles....

...."We understand the tough economic times everyone is experiencing, including us.
What concerns us is that the decreasing public attendance at shows is causing dealers to NOT cover expenses,
which may force them to have to possibly eliminate attending shows. Then, lower dealer participation at these shows
will then cause even less public to attend and then the show may have to
be cancelled due to lack of interest. So we are asking you to do what you can to support your favorite dealers
and shows as much as you can during these tough times so they can survive and
be around for when the economy improves.
For those of you that ARE doing your part, we really appreciate it! THANK YOU!"

"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso

Comments

  • derrybderryb Posts: 37,107 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bailout request?

    Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oh well...survival of the fittest...some make it, some do not. Cheers, RickO
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Too many shows, too many dealers. The strong shows and the strong dealers will survive. The weak will be eaten. The weak shows and weak dealers will eventually be replaced by more inventive shows/promoters and dealers. It's called re-entry and it is what has made our economic system work and strengthen for years. Weak being replaced with strong. Only when the system is tinkered with or propped up artificially does it falter eventually............JMHO. MJ
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • bailout request?

    I think AD is forgetting that while dealers are hurting so are the collectors, it is tough on everyone and I get no sympathy sales. Times like these weed out the weak which is well, nature.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Actually during these "tough economic times", the dealers should be working harder, do more shows if possible...keep the B&M store open longer hours, perhaps on weekends if necessary...list more on ebay and elsewhere, perhaps get more aggressive with the pricing to improve cash flow...IE: work harder and smarter and do whatever it takes to succeed or survive...and if not, well then another business bites the dust.

    One thing about the consumer, there is very little if virtually any true loyalty towards any business...for them it's what have you done for me lately and what can you do for me on the purchase I want to make now...otherwise they buy elsewhere...and those dealers who forget that fact, will be out of business sooner or later. There's no crying in business.
  • GreeniejrGreeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
    Times are tough for guys like Andy. He is primarily a show dealer who has one of the finest inventories of Lincolns and IHC out there. Unfortunately great coins are expensive and in a bad economy people don't buy that kind of thing. On top of that, he doesn't have other areas of business carrying him like dollars, gold and bullion that is what is carrying most dealers today. I wish Andy nothing but the best because he is one of the nicest most genuine people in the industry.
  • This content has been removed.
  • GreeniejrGreeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Actually during these "tough economic times", the dealers should be working harder, do more shows if possible...keep the B&M store open longer hours, perhaps on weekends if necessary...list more on ebay and elsewhere, perhaps get more aggressive with the pricing to improve cash flow...IE: work harder and smarter and do whatever it takes to succeed or survive...and if not, well then another business bites the dust.

    One thing about the consumer, there is very little if virtually any true loyalty towards any business...for them it's what have you done for me lately and what can you do for me on the purchase I want to make now...otherwise they buy elsewhere...and those dealers who forget that fact, will be out of business sooner or later. There's no crying in business. >>



    In general you are absolutely correct but there are a few guys in our industry whose incredible customer service skills and knowledge yield as close to loyalty as our industry allows. Andy is one of them. On a side note Mike Printz is one of the others. I had a guy call me for a few coins and he was a customer of Andy's that genuinely felt bad for using another dealer. It was just a situation that I had several items that this guy wanted the Andy just didnt carry.
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>sick of those who can't take responsibility and blame everyone else >>



    Wow!
    That's is a stretch as regards the email.


    ---

    Anyway, I'm seconding Greeniejr's comments.

    "Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso

  • I've said it here before, I don't care what you collect, the whole middle market is in the doldrums.image
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My g/f would say : "toughen up, sunshine". That is, until she needed a back rub.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,413 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Actually during these "tough economic times", the dealers should be working harder, do more shows if possible...keep the B&M store open longer hours, perhaps on weekends if necessary...list more on ebay and elsewhere, perhaps get more aggressive with the pricing to improve cash flow...IE: work harder and smarter and do whatever it takes to succeed or survive...and if not, well then another business bites the dust.

    One thing about the consumer, there is very little if virtually any true loyalty towards any business...for them it's what have you done for me lately and what can you do for me on the purchase I want to make now...otherwise they buy elsewhere...and those dealers who forget that fact, will be out of business sooner or later. There's no crying in business. >>



    In general you are absolutely correct but there are a few guys in our industry whose incredible customer service skills and knowledge yield as close to loyalty as our industry allows. Andy is one of them. On a side note Mike Printz is one of the others. I had a guy call me for a few coins and he was a customer of Andy's that genuinely felt bad for using another dealer. It was just a situation that I had several items that this guy wanted the Andy just didnt carry. >>



    Point understood and all that you mentioned about Andy definitely counts. I remember when Bob Hope was asked about new comedians when they go out on stage as to how much time they have to impress an audience, and Hope replied (paraphrase) "about one minute" and then in a pause that those old time comedians used to do so very well he stated, "And I get about a minute and a half."

    Yes, Andy is good but he still only gets "about a minute and a half"...because it's a tough "audience" out there. image
  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Slow attendance at the last show I locally attended; yet, many dealers, more than last year.

    My favorite local B&M man does little other than take phone and walk-in orders selling/buying bullion.

    Has for years. That was a fine decision!

    Miles
    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • RampageRampage Posts: 9,485 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That email you got is a pretty poor way of asking the collectors to bail them out of financially difficult times. Will they bail the collectors out when the collector hurts? Doubtful...
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not meant to get things started again but given his business model, he should try to adjust and find a way to get good pictures for the coins listed on his website.
    He has been the subject of this type of suggestion at least a few times and it is his business to do with as he pleases, however, if his current model is not working as well as he would like, then I would think that would be the easiest adjustment.

    I have talked to him, once or twice, at large shows...but I don't go to large shows that often. I also wasn't as into some parts of collecting as I am now, and my initial budget was much smaller (my choice...so as to not lose as much by mistakes when I was starting out), so I didn't pay as much attention to a lot of his inventory.

    All the above ads up to me not being willing to pay his prices on his listed inventory. I am not going to call and have them described. I try to never order anything, even with a great return policy, unless I am thinking of keeping it (I have returned 3 coins, I believe, over the last 7 years+....sometimes, even wanting to keep a coin just doesn't happen when you have it in-hand and it just isn't for you).

    While he may not take shots as well as some of our forum members, he could likely spend ~$1000 (more or less) and a few hours learning the basics, and get at least as good as JJTeaparty's pics, or Teletrade's pics. Do that, and with his rep for great coins and keeping the ability to call in for an over the phone description and a great return policy, and I would bet his clientele would grow and his sales would grow as well.


    For the overall tone of the letter....of course, it is true, however, the barriers to entry for this hobby as actually pretty low. There will always be dealers, of some sort, as there will always be people that want to go to a show to spend money and see the coin right then. Regrettably, some of the smaller, good, dealers will be the ones who suffer (and so the customer will as well).
    If it were me, and I only did shows, I would try to play with numbers to see if I could do more turnover of stock with a slightly lower profit margin...if that would increase volume.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭


    << <i>so they can survive and be around for when the economy improves. >>




    I don't see that happening anytime soon.

    Good for you.


  • << <i>from an email received over the weekend from Angel Dee's Coins and Collectibles....

    ...."We understand the tough economic times everyone is experiencing, including us.
    What concerns us is that the decreasing public attendance at shows is causing dealers to NOT cover expenses,
    which may force them to have to possibly eliminate attending shows. Then, lower dealer participation at these shows
    will then cause even less public to attend and then the show may have to
    be cancelled due to lack of interest. So we are asking you to do what you can to support your favorite dealers
    and shows as much as you can during these tough times so they can survive and
    be around for when the economy improves.
    For those of you that ARE doing your part, we really appreciate it! THANK YOU!" >>


    What is their point? Buy more coins?
    Don't they realize the current economic situation affects collectors also?
    I have a monthly budget that I have to live within.
    There's just so much I can spend on my hobbies and I don't think I'm alone in that boat.
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some of these folks must not be running there biz right, he!! due to these economic times , since opening my B & M , I might actually get rich before its over. And It aint from selling either.
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Most folks in business these days in order to survive they need to adjust and be more creative to survive. Yes, it's tough, it hurts, it hurts pride but the alternative is to go down. The ones that going down is not an option hopefully survive. Sometimes they go down anyways. This is not just the coin business, it's most any business these days. Especially self employed folks. Nobody likes to work harder and longer for less but we gotta do what we gotta do to keep going.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • pragmaticgoatpragmaticgoat Posts: 859 ✭✭✭
    The local B&M guy in my area follows the demand, buying selling coins, bullion, scrap jewelry, recently added lotto and check cashing..ten years ago he was one man shop, now has four people working.
    BST references:
    jdimmick;Gerard;wondercoin;claychaser;agentjim007;CCC2010;guitarwes;TAMU15;Zubie;mariner67;segoja;Smittys;kaz;CARDSANDCOINS;FadeToBlack;
    jrt103;tizofthe;bronze6827;mkman;Scootersdad;AllCoinsRule;coindeuce;dmarks;piecesofme; and many more
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What he meant to say was :

    If you thought this was the worst time to buy coins, you're wrong.
  • GreeniejrGreeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
    Rereading the quote, it is not necessarily Andy asking for business. I think at least part of it is him saying that if you value your local show, attend it. There are far too many shows now that if people don't show up for them, the shows cease to be worth doing. We are attending more shows now but eliminating taking tables at them because it just doesn't make sense financially to do it. There are fewer shows that have a level of marginal retail business that is positive.
  • scotty1419scotty1419 Posts: 928 ✭✭✭
    Can we get the mailing list and re-send it asking for the dealers to support their local coin collector in these tough times?
  • Maybe we all need to chip in and re-write death of a car salesman to deal of a coin salesman and get it "off Broadway" then donate all proceeds to "feed the dealers-NPO"

    Thoughts?
  • derrybderryb Posts: 37,107 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Popularity of on-line purchasing is repsonsible for part of the decline. Like everyone else, dealers have to adapt. Maybe an on-line bourse? image

    Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For many collectors the money just isn't there for the purchase of discretionary items like numismatic coins.

    The market is shrinking much as it did in 1964-5-6. Many collectors will never return to the hobby. Others have switched to speculating in current mint issues (flippers) and no longer bother with numismatic coins.

    Don't be surprised to see the market for numismatic type coins below the grade of problem-free XF dry up (very early type excepted).

    There will still be coin collectors, just not as many of them. Dealer's product (and prices) had better reflect the new market realities.





    All glory is fleeting.
  • ManorcourtmanManorcourtman Posts: 8,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I attend every show within 100 miles and do my best to help support the locals guys. However, I am quickly reaching the point of rethinking my attendence. I see the same lame inventory for sale for years by the same dealers with overpriced, cleaned junk. I honestly don't know how they make any money. I am beginning to believe they are there for the social interaction! I am always a strong buyer for quality PCGS and NGC coins and sometimes quality raw material but it is very tough to find! I also do my best to support dealers with quality websites. There is NO excuse for websites without pics. No pictures, no business from me. It's 2011 Dealers, get with the program or perish.
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Perhaps the show owners could step it up as well...reduce their prices. And how about the unions prevalent at the larger shows lowering their mandatory rates of $100 or more just for them to plug your electrical cord into a light socket, or their other outrageously high setup fees. How about the state, city and local governments reducing fees and costs to the show owners and vendors? How about a reduction in the sales taxes? Etc, etc, etc.

    It's not the "requirement" of the consumer to step it up - it's the sellers in all forms who profit off the consumer who need to step it up...but alas too many of them have forgotten this basic business principle, especially the governments.
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,513 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I see the same lame inventory for sale for years by the same dealers with overpriced, cleaned junk. I honestly don't know how they make any money. >>


    I've been pondering this myself....but not just raw junk, many common but otherwise nice 'widgets' likewise are just sitting there. My guess is that there is virtually no outlet for a lot of this stuff. Even if they cut prices in half, would there still be buyers for common date circ coins?
    As some suggested, maybe use Ebay and just blow them out with no reserves and see what happens, to generate some cash? But then what are they going to buy? Most of the smaller dealers I talk to aren't getting any 'fresh' stuff, at least not enough to sustain a business on.
    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Have a hard enough time finding coins I can afford, that it is hard to support a show sale item that is normally priced about 25% more than I can find it online for.
    image
  • goldengolden Posts: 9,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Like Laura has said,there are too many shows!We do not need 3 ANA shows,3 Long Beach or the Whitman Philly show among several others.

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