Are coins dipped prior to grading process?

copperhunter

I recently submitted a number of nicely toned, colorful, common date Lincolns for grading and TruView, in efforts to add to my toned collection. After the long wait, I received notice that my grades were in and my photos were available. I looked at the TruViews first and noticed that almost all of the coins in the photos had lost their color. Then I checked the grades....most of the grades were in the ballpark of what I had graded them to be, so no problems there. But, I was disappointed about the TruViews; they looked lifeless and devoid of the color that I knew the coins had. So, I was disappointed, as I wanted to capture the beautiful colors in my coins for this batch that I knew that I could not due to photo skills/time available.

Well, I received the coins last night, and the color was gone from these coins! How could the coins have lost their color??? I had suspected something was wrong to a lesser degree with some other submissions, but now I know something is not right. Can anyone explain this?

Here is a prime example, and the one I am most upset about:

1951-S 65RB:

I took these pictures, and they represented the colors accurately:


Here is the TruView pictrue, and very much representative of the color that the coin now has (reds and blues and violets all gone, replaced with muted orange/tan color:


A number of the coins have had their color altered to a similar degree. Can anyone explain this? I would love to hear the explanation.

Thanks!

Chris

BAJJERFAN

I'm pretty sure that PCGS doesn't dip submitted coins as a routine practice.

ambro51

Well for the first time now youre looking at the coins through plastic...which may change your view of the color, which is really light dependent.

The tru views are lit in a way which is not like what you see a coin under. Personally I think there is little Tru about them.

Ill bet you could take your coin, (which I like BTW) and at the time you took the first image, tilted, or viewed it in such a manner it would appear as a mildly brown colored RB cent...which is what the tru view lighting is showing it as. IF trhey had done the tilt and play with the lights thing, their image may have been much closer to yours.

Ill bet Todd could make a far different image than the tru view, and bring it back to what you seen initially.

But to answer the original question, no, coins are not dipped.

coinkid855

I'd talk to PCGS about getting your money back on that Truview. Not only does the image not show it properly, but it's also not very crisp and has a lot of "noise" in it. It's not what I'd expect from Trueview.




-Paul

copperhunter

Well, I know I am a small player in this pool and do not have nearly the same experience as everyone else on here, but I can say with 100% certainty that the color difference is not due to seeing a coin inside and outside of the holder. I understand the angles and how they play into differences in perceived appearance, and now the color on the coin that was once visible at all angles is visible at no angle.

sonoranmonsoon

I agree the PCGS pictures did not pick up all the color, but they do show more of the details of the coin. Your pictures seem too dark.

DIMEMAN

This would be a good question for Mr. Willis.

lkeigwin

I would be shocked to learn that PCGS ever dips a coin without prior permission.

The OP's coin does, however, appear different. And conservation of colorful copper can change its appearance.

Below is an example of an IHC I asked PCGS to conserve due to some small green spots on the reverse. The problem was resolved but the color changed. That's the risk I took and I don't blame PCGS.

I would certainly ask PCGS about this. Ambro is right and the cent may look more like its original appearance at different angles. But if the OP doesn't see it that way then the question should be asked.
Lance.

BEFORE


AFTER

blu62vette

That color on copper can be tricky to catch. My guess is you can move the lights and it looks brown, move again and you have purple.

If you think the color has changed I would contact customer service or email Don. They'll get to the bottom of it.

Shamika

Those images hardly look like the same Lincoln Cent.

boucharda

<< <i>Those images hardly look like the same Lincoln Cent. >>



Maybe 'cuz the 1 in 1951 disappeared??? (almost)

ricko

Same coin...distinguishing 'marks' are still there.... Cheers, RickO

TAMU15

Trust me you would know if they dipped a copper coin. When you dip copper it turns a weird pinkish color.

DoubleEagle59

I'm siding with the OP.

To me they are the same coin, but they appear different 'before and after' grading.

I had an 1864 2c piece that I sent to Anacs awhile ago and when it came back, it looked totally different (my problem, is I didn't have a 'before' picture so I couldn't substantiate anything).

The OP however, has some pretty solid evidence for some serious inquiries.

copperhunter

There were a few others that I just had graded that don't look right in my submission. I raised the issue of dipping, because I cannot think of any other way the color could be diminished to the extent that it did. What "prep work" is done during the TruView process? I wish I could prove the color was originally there at most angles. I have looked at the coins in all of my viewing areas throughout the house and there is no doubt that the coin has changed.

Someone mentioned my pics representing the coin as too dark - it was dark with all of these beautiful colors. I was expecting a BN color designation or even a no grade, as I sent it in more to have a professional capture the colors and have the coin gleam in the holder, and if lucky receive a grade and post in my sets....that can never be the case now!

The 1 did seem to disappear didn't it.

PTVETTER

The OP has a point if in fact the coin in hand looks like the PCGS photo.

BIG differance!!

amiller

copperhunter, were these submitted directly or through a dealer?

copperhunter

amiller - I submitted the coin(s) myself.

copperhunter

OK. Here are my photos post-submission in the holder taken in the same environment and same camera settings. I will grant those that might view the coin as "splitting the difference" between the raw version and the TruView, but the coin has lost the blues/violets that were there:

GoldenEyeNumismatics

How long did you own the coin for?

lkeigwin

I'm surprised you even bothered to have it graded and imaged. A full red MS65 '51-S is a $5 coin. If the color was spectacular and it didn't have carbon spotting it might be worth $75.

However this turns out, at least it's an inexpensive coin, easy to replace. But yes, I know, it's the principle.
Lance.

DoubleEagle59

I don't know how anyone could not think these are the same coin.

There are so many markers that match these identically that it's beyond obvious.

copperhunter

Thank you DoubleEagle for the support. I submitted it for the reasons stated earlier. I do not have the luxury of owning 4 figure, let alone 5 figure coins like most here do, so I do my best to engage in the process in my own way. I wanted to submit it in hopes of adding to my toned lincoln collection contained within the ironicly named "colorless" collections, and someday possibly show it in a case somewhere and try sell it for $175 or $375, or some other ridiculous amount that most of the dealers around do.

The color was spectacular, and the coin would have shown wonderfully amongst all of the ridiculously dealer priced coins out there. I am done with this debate and will end up chalking this as a $350 loss on the entire submission (in addition to this, I only received 6 out of the 7 truviews; another '15 that I sent in should have received a 64+ or 65BN grade, but instead received a no grade for cleaning (I would love for someone to show me the cleaning there, but this has grown tiresome). The submission prior to that, the wrong coin was TruViewed.....I guess I just don't have the name to get the proper treatment.

Thanks everyone for their insight!

metalmeister

Shipping contamination to PCGS?

magikbilly

the color guarantee for copper is gone. what would be gained by 'rinsing" or whatever you want to label it, copper coins specifically? the stability of silver coinage and "market acceptable" toning....oh never mind.


eric

WaterSport

Well, PCGS will acetone Lincoln's because they did it for me, but called first as it was a 72 DDO that had been messed with in one of their holders. They wanted to see if the acetone would salvage it but it did not and I got a refund since it was in one of their holders. this is pre sniffer days, like 7 years ago.

WS

magikbilly

asking first is good!


Eric

Coppercolor

<< <i>How long did you own the coin for? >>



Same question I was going to ask!

Those blues/pinks can be very unstable, particularly if a fresh treatment (say MS70) was applied. I spend a lot of time looking at colorful copper and have seen plenty of coins change color (ones in old anacs holders, blue ribbon or MS70 treated)etc. Some over a 15 year period, some in a matter of months. I've gone through much of the copper color learning curve and have settled on selecting good pieces with the right stable colorful look and leaving them be.

I am in no way implying that the OP did anything or that anything was applied, just sharing some experiences in case they shed light.

TexasNationals

I think it is a bad tru-view, but after seeing the graded coin in the holder I just think it is lighting differences.

MICHAELDIXON

I would like to know what type of flip copperhunter submitted his coins to PCGS in. I submitted a bunch of coins once in the PVC flips and the coins all came back with what looked like a light film on them and the colors were definitely different. metalmeister might be correct: Shipping contamination to PCGS?

ambro51

I will tell you I did have one 'strange' copper thing happen with a PCGS submission.

Out of change can my wife had...came a stunning 1959 memorial. I thought it was the Bees Knees and sent it in.

When it came back BANG what the He&& is that huge dark spot in front of abes forehead??????????????????

Back to my photos of it prior, and there was a slight, barely visible patchy spot, just barely seen.

I never NEVER would have sent that coin in seeing that black spot there. never.

So I can only surmise that something was done to the coin during the grading which brought this out so strongly.

But its only a $20 coin so what the heck. BTW, Graded MS64RD

pre submission






post submission

JRocco

I have sent copper in to be graded and they came back "different".