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the grey sheet

stevebensteveben Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
i am only a hobby-level collector...but i am wondering something. whenever i take a coin to sell or trade...i notice the grey sheet gets pulled out and the dealer invariably says something like, "i can get this wholesale at x amount." so, where do they get it at that price? is there like a coin-sam's club some place?

Comments

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,133 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>i am only a hobby-level collector...but i am wondering something. whenever i take a coin to sell or trade...i notice the grey sheet gets pulled out and the dealer invariably says something like, "i can get this wholesale at x amount." so, where do they get it at that price? is there like a coin-sam's club some place? >>



    Usually there are trades between dealers at shows. As a small dealer I would go on buying trips to the major shows to acquire material.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭✭✭
    there are a number of dealer sites used for pricing
    Here are some:
    CCE
    Coin Net
    Coin Plex
    The grey sheet is good for about 50% of the time the rest are too high or too low!

    I hope this helps!
    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • guitarwesguitarwes Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭

    Most all of the dealers at the show I went to last weekend are buying at 15% back of greysheet bid, even for key/better date stuff. They are complaining heavily that J6P has access to the greysheet now and that they can't sell at ask levels anymore because the collectors want it for cheaper.

    @ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work.
    Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
  • renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, they just buy whatever they want right off the greysheet. The prices are right there.

    Empty Nest Collection
    Matt’s Mattes

  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No, they just buy whatever they want right off the greysheet. The prices are right there. >>



    so, i am the wholesale guy.
  • TURBOTURBO Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    Is that what the coin dealers call the average customer? Joe six pack!!.....NICE!!!!!image
  • renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,650 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>No, they just buy whatever they want right off the greysheet. The prices are right there. >>



    so, i am the wholesale guy. >>


    Oh, yes!

    A bit tongue-in-cheek, but back in the day I would go around quoting PCGS price guide, and occasionally higher price dealers would just tell me to "buy it there". Now I just say the same thing back whenever the greysheet comes out.

    Look, dealers are in a great position to buy at these prices and/or just pass whenever they're offered something that's not on an active want list. It's not like they need your 1909 SVDB or '32-d quarter in MS63. And sure, they might not see another one for a while, but it doesn't really matter. For them, and for the most part, it's all about playing the field and working on the law of averages. So if they offer low bid and only close 7 out of 10 deals, who cares? And probably they will only make appreciable money on about 70% of that stuff, because there aren't always buyers lined up. And in particular, dealers offered coins at a show or a shop will offer much much less than retail, as they will then become the ones responsible for finding that special buyer who needs the coin for their collection, and it's their money on the line now, not yours.

    It's a pretty rare circumstance that you will meet a dealer and show him/her a coin that they have to have, and are willing to pay up to get it. So basically, unless you have a highly-graded rarity with wonderful eye-appeal that they either have a buyer for or just want it bad for their display, you'd be a lot better off just trying to find a collector buyer on your own and try to sell it yourself for a modest price.

    Empty Nest Collection
    Matt’s Mattes

  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Arn't those prices supposed to be based on lot buys and sales between dealers. How many collectors are ready to buy ten or twenty graded ms65 coins as a lot sight unseen with no return possible. This is where I was led to belive the guide came into play.
    image
    My Current project....https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/album/160794
  • WTCGWTCG Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭
    The Greysheet is a price reference guide that is not gospel nor totally accurate, nothing more. Nobody is obligated to sell coins at Greysheet numbers nor obligated to pay Greysheet numbers. There are some coins I would be thrilled to get Greysheet bid for and some where the Greysheet is too low for.
    Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup
    Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
  • TURBOTURBO Posts: 494 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>No, they just buy whatever they want right off the greysheet. The prices are right there. >>



    so, i am the wholesale guy. >>


    Oh, yes!

    A bit tongue-in-cheek, but back in the day I would go around quoting PCGS price guide, and occasionally higher price dealers would just tell me to "buy it there". Now I just say the same thing back whenever the greysheet comes out.

    Look, dealers are in a great position to buy at these prices and/or just pass whenever they're offered something that's not on an active want list. It's not like they need your 1909 SVDB or '32-d quarter in MS63. And sure, they might not see another one for a while, but it doesn't really matter. For them, and for the most part, it's all about playing the field and working on the law of averages. So if they offer low bid and only close 7 out of 10 deals, who cares? And probably they will only make appreciable money on about 70% of that stuff, because there aren't always buyers lined up. And in particular, dealers offered coins at a show or a shop will offer much much less than retail, as they will then become the ones responsible for finding that special buyer who needs the coin for their collection, and it's their money on the line now, not yours.

    It's a pretty rare circumstance that you will meet a dealer and show him/her a coin that they have to have, and are willing to pay up to get it. So basically, unless you have a highly-graded rarity with wonderful eye-appeal that they either have a buyer for or just want it bad for their display, you'd be a lot better off just trying to find a collector buyer on your own and try to sell it yourself for a modest price. >>




    Exactly! Then why is it that so many collectors continue to do so?? If you have the need to sell, sell on frigging Ebay or one of the auction sites or even on BST!! why walk in as a sucker and take a loss on purpose!?

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,450 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>No, they just buy whatever they want right off the greysheet. The prices are right there. >>



    so, i am the wholesale guy. >>


    Oh, yes!

    A bit tongue-in-cheek, but back in the day I would go around quoting PCGS price guide, and occasionally higher price dealers would just tell me to "buy it there". Now I just say the same thing back whenever the greysheet comes out.

    Look, dealers are in a great position to buy at these prices and/or just pass whenever they're offered something that's not on an active want list. It's not like they need your 1909 SVDB or '32-d quarter in MS63. And sure, they might not see another one for a while, but it doesn't really matter. For them, and for the most part, it's all about playing the field and working on the law of averages. So if they offer low bid and only close 7 out of 10 deals, who cares? And probably they will only make appreciable money on about 70% of that stuff, because there aren't always buyers lined up. And in particular, dealers offered coins at a show or a shop will offer much much less than retail, as they will then become the ones responsible for finding that special buyer who needs the coin for their collection, and it's their money on the line now, not yours.

    It's a pretty rare circumstance that you will meet a dealer and show him/her a coin that they have to have, and are willing to pay up to get it. So basically, unless you have a highly-graded rarity with wonderful eye-appeal that they either have a buyer for or just want it bad for their display, you'd be a lot better off just trying to find a collector buyer on your own and try to sell it yourself for a modest price. >>




    Exactly! Then why is it that so many collectors continue to do so?? If you have the need to sell, sell on frigging Ebay or one of the auction sites or even on BST!! why walk in as a sucker and take a loss on purpose!? >>



    Because there is no guarrenty that as a seller you can sell and receive more on any of those venues.
    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yes, there are no guarantees (in life either, for that matter). i realize that...however, i was just wondering if there was actually a wholesale place for coin dealers (for commons, obviously) or if collectors are essentially the wholesalers. renomedphys confirmed basically what i was thinking to begin with. thanks!
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The Greysheet is a price reference guide that is not gospel nor totally accurate, nothing more. Nobody is obligated to sell coins at Greysheet numbers nor obligated to pay Greysheet numbers. There are some coins I would be thrilled to get Greysheet bid for and some where the Greysheet is too low for. >>



    image
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A loupe , discussion and dialogue helps sellers to sell and buyers to buy. The grey sheet is a guide, but nothing is a better guide than compromise between the two who are transacting.

    Retail prices are a component of many factors. It depends on the grocer how much beans cost, even though the farmer is the key to the whole deal.
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
    I have long advocated that the hobby have TWO values shown in ALL price guides representing BUY and SELL values. Obviously, no number is absolute but I believe a reasonable average BUY and SELL value for each coin would allow dealers and sellers to negotiate a fair transaction. My definitions. BUY = The value that a knowledgeable dealer would pay a knowledgeable collector for a coin in a certain grade. SELL = The value that a knowledgeable dealer would sell a knowledgeable collector a coin in a certain grade. With those two numbers, both the dealer and collector would negotiate to an agreeable price for the transaction. A refinment to values might be a separate listing for those coins in PCGS or NGC holders and another listing for those coins either RAW or in another holder. Steve image
    My True View Album

    My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
  • StaircoinsStaircoins Posts: 2,573 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I have long advocated that the hobby have TWO values shown in ALL price guides representing BUY and SELL values. Obviously, no number is absolute but I believe a reasonable average BUY and SELL value for each coin would allow dealers and sellers to negotiate a fair transaction. My definitions. BUY = The value that a knowledgeable dealer would pay a knowledgeable collector for a coin in a certain grade. SELL = The value that a knowledgeable dealer would sell a knowledgeable collector a coin in a certain grade. With those two numbers, both the dealer and collector would negotiate to an agreeable price for the transaction. ... >>


    Haven't you just described "Bid" and "Ask" prices?
  • TURBOTURBO Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    seems like all the dealers want to be PAWN STARS!!
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great post with a lot of truth in it, renomedphys!
    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know a lot of dealers who pay 15% back of Greysheet bid
    however, their bids are based on current market trends and
    the ability to "flip" the coin(s) ASAP. It's better to educate
    yourself more before making any decision.
    Timbuk3
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,404 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>seems like all the dealers want to be PAWN STARS!! >>



    Which came first : The coin dealer or the pawn stars ?
  • bestdaybestday Posts: 4,239 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>yes, there are no guarantees (in life either, for that matter). i realize that...however, i was just wondering if there was actually a wholesale place for coin dealers (for commons, obviously) or if collectors are essentially the wholesalers. renomedphys confirmed basically what i was thinking to begin with. thanks! >>



    some dealers buying coins factoring in a profit for them when wholesaling and a profit for the wholesaler.. take it to the bay.. you can't be worse off
  • SteveSteve Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I have long advocated that the hobby have TWO values shown in ALL price guides representing BUY and SELL values. Obviously, no number is absolute but I believe a reasonable average BUY and SELL value for each coin would allow dealers and sellers to negotiate a fair transaction. My definitions. BUY = The value that a knowledgeable dealer would pay a knowledgeable collector for a coin in a certain grade. SELL = The value that a knowledgeable dealer would sell a knowledgeable collector a coin in a certain grade. With those two numbers, both the dealer and collector would negotiate to an agreeable price for the transaction. ... >>


    Haven't you just described "Bid" and "Ask" prices? >>



    NO! When I say BUY value I am talking about the wholesale CDN "Ask" value. That is what the dealer is asking for the coin. When I say SELL value I am talking about the retail value you currently see in the PCGS price guide and the Coin World "Values". I recognize the dealer is in business and must make a profit to survive. The CDN "bid" and the CDN "ask" represents the dealer to dealer transactions. Steveimage
    My True View Album

    My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭


    << <i>My definitions. BUY = The value that a knowledgeable dealer would pay a knowledgeable collector for a coin in a certain grade. SELL = The value that a knowledgeable dealer would sell a knowledgeable collector a coin in a certain grade. >>

    The problem here is that knowledgeable dealers (and collectors, for that matter) will never all agree on a single value. The best you can hope for is a range of values, but you can't expect that any particular buyer or seller will happen to agree with your personal value determination.
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've always wondered if the Grey Sheet has a meter on it sizing up potential buyers/sellers. I ask this as many times the dealer will look at his sheet, look at me, back at the sheet, back at me. image
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • 2Old2GrowUp2Old2GrowUp Posts: 136
    collector brings the dealer a VF grade 1938-d walker grey sheet $90 dealer offers 45-50% Why because you can get XF grade generally sell for about $60-65 somtimes even less. But the dealer is a rude arrogant crook because he wont buy the dead money for said reason. And there are many many examples like this in the coin collecting world. >>

    Some coins command better prices more than others. More examples 1914-d buffalo, 1870 IHP, 1921-p-d mercs,1921-d walker. etc......

    << <i>
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭
    Nobody has given the proper explanation - and it's RIGHT THERE ON THE BOTTOM OF PAGE ONE! The Greysheet shows the HIGHEST known bid and the LOWEST known ASK. Is it likely that the dealer you offer your coins to just happens to be the guy offering the highest bid from among all the listings on the 2 major wholesale trading networks, plus the many buy lists sent by market makers via email or fax? You might get lucky if the dealer has a standing order for what you are selling. But that is seldom the case, so a dealer paying 85% of what the highest bidder is paying is a fair net amount to the alternative of getting 100% of Bid...but having to find out WHO is paying that...often you have to pay hundreds of dollars a month to be on the trading networks to have access to the information. Then you have to pay shipping and insurance to send the coins to that dealer...and remember..the guy paying 100% of bid for Mint State Walkers is probably not the same person paying 100% of bid for 1962-64 proof sets. Then the risk that your coins "don't meet our high standards" and are returned. Which is better than the buyer going bankrupt...in many cases you neither get your coins back NOR the money. You can even receive a check that doesn't bounce, but months later a bankruptcy court sues you to get the money back..but they keep your coins.

    Walk up to a dealer's table, get 85% of Greysheet in CASH in 30 seconds..it really is a fair deal.
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com

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