The true costs, of a dealer attending a show
Bear
Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
1. The usual Trans, hotel, food and local transportation.
2. Security cost in transporting goods
3. Cost of table
4. How does one place a value on wear and tear?
Time away from family ?
5. How does one place a cost on possible robbery or physical attack
6. I have attended a number of shows over the past few years. Looking at
the age and physical condition of a number of dealers, many did not look to be in the
best of shape to deal with the strain of attending the show.
Balancing pluses
1. Did you adequately fill want lists?
2. Was sufficient stock sold to cover hard fixed costs?
3.Was sufficient stock purchased to freshen inventory
and ability to offer sufficient new items if interest to your clients??
4. Were new worthwhile contacts made with with other dealers
and or clients?
5. From your business perspective, did that particular show warrant
the effort, cost and risk, to consider attending in the future?
6. Did you have an enjoyable time meeting up with old friends for dinner?
7. Did attending the show give you a feel for the direction the market may
be moving in or the velocity of any such move?
8. Did the type of coins being sold at the show match up well with the kinds
of coins your clients seem to want to buy?
As one can see, it is not always about the bottom line of dollars and cents.
There are also the intangibles to be calculated.
A coin dealership is a tough business and getting tougher with each passing year.
2. Security cost in transporting goods
3. Cost of table
4. How does one place a value on wear and tear?
Time away from family ?
5. How does one place a cost on possible robbery or physical attack
6. I have attended a number of shows over the past few years. Looking at
the age and physical condition of a number of dealers, many did not look to be in the
best of shape to deal with the strain of attending the show.
Balancing pluses
1. Did you adequately fill want lists?
2. Was sufficient stock sold to cover hard fixed costs?
3.Was sufficient stock purchased to freshen inventory
and ability to offer sufficient new items if interest to your clients??
4. Were new worthwhile contacts made with with other dealers
and or clients?
5. From your business perspective, did that particular show warrant
the effort, cost and risk, to consider attending in the future?
6. Did you have an enjoyable time meeting up with old friends for dinner?
7. Did attending the show give you a feel for the direction the market may
be moving in or the velocity of any such move?
8. Did the type of coins being sold at the show match up well with the kinds
of coins your clients seem to want to buy?
As one can see, it is not always about the bottom line of dollars and cents.
There are also the intangibles to be calculated.
A coin dealership is a tough business and getting tougher with each passing year.
There once was a place called
Camelot
Camelot
0
Comments
what does an excellent coin dealer make before taxes?
must place a heavy burden on the business . Who is left behind to answer the phone?
Camelot
and physical condition of many smaller dealers and it really did not look good.
Camelot
20% make 100k?
5% make 200K?
gold and silver helps all, but what happens when that is on a downtrend?
the thread. Although profit is certainly a substantial consideration
it is not the most important consideration by far.
The thread was and is intended, to place more humanistic aspects,
of a dealers considerations as to business considerations.
Camelot
Camelot
suited.
I am a fly-by-night-when-I-want-to-need-to-sell-stuff-dealer
520+ 100% on fleaBay-which will prob never change as I no longer play the ebay game, id
rather sell at a lower fixed rate designed to move on BST, as I just have alot to get rid of.
once all is cleaned up, There will not be a need to move anything, as I am not a dealer Thank God.
Id probably like the travling and dinner/lip flapping sessions though
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>That comment on annual earnings is really sidetracking >>
If the poster had a clue it might be sidetracking.
<< <i>That comment on annual earnings is really sidetracking
the thread. Although profit is certainly a substantial consideration
it is not the most important consideration by far.
The thread was and is intended, to place more humanistic aspects,
of a dealers considerations as to business considerations. >>
Huh?
Dealers are in the coin business "because" it can support them or their interests and is no different than any other "business" that requires attending shows. A lot really enjoy it and in turn make the hbest of every show they have to travel too. Check out Charmy's threads. To me, those reports are on enjoyable trips.
I cannot buy into the "4. How does one place a value on wear and tear? Time away from family ?" aspect since these coin dealers are not forced to attend these shows. They attend shows that they feel will be profitable and it's ALL by choice. If they cannot handle that aspect then they probably can't handle having a store front either since it makes the exact same demands other than being home at night. But then thats why all of them have cell phones and laptops so the communications aspect isn't a total loss.
Sure, they'd like to be home with the wife and kids on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday but thats true with any full time job.
Personally, I'd rather be at home than go into the office myself but then, I'd wouldn't make any money then would I?
If a coin dealer enjoys the experience of attending coin shows then they'll attend, otherwise they won't and it really is about how much they'll make despite the humanistic side.
The name is LEE!
you said, still you have missed the point intended. The small dealer is a very intense
type of interpersonal business relationship. I was attempting to show the possible
considerations that might pass thru the mind of these small dealers. You have choosen
to take a simple automatic response, to a threat that is complex as well subtle. Do you really
believe that the bear would ask a simple question in a simple thread. Apparently you
do and that is a real shame.
Camelot
<< <i>you said, still you have missed the point intended. The small dealer is a very intense
type of interpersonal business relationship. I was attempting to show the possible
considerations that might pass thru the mind of these small dealers. >>
You mentioned nothing regarding the size of a coin dealer in your initial post and I don't believe I missed anything. Coin Dealers are Coin Dealers by Choice.
The name is LEE!
Let us move on to something else.
Camelot
Like most things in life, the more you work at it the better you can do vs. a guy thaT puts little effort in it.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
its not all 'down'. sure beats punching a time clock in some stupid factory making prefab windows.
Bear, everyone gets old and wears out. we all know it. but its not a reason to stop living or even to slow way down. These dealers are making out OK. they may look like crap but theyre going to be just fine.
<< <i>what does a good coin dealer make before taxes?
what does an excellent coin dealer make before taxes? >>
Coin dealers are like real estate agents or actors. Those at the very top make a huge percentage of the money, another small group makes a decent living, a big group does okay enough to earn a living, a big section of wannabes keep their "day" jobs.
Most show circuit dealers LIKE attending shows, otherwise they wouldn't be going to so many shows a year. They would be mail order dealers, or graders for a TPG, or stay at home at their local shop. For most, attending shows, being on the road is a plus not a minus, though as with anything too much of a good thing can wear a person down.
A story that I like to repeat is about the two Ferrari dealers. Some years ago, I was walking the bourse at Long Beach and two dealers were shooting the breeze. One said to another did you see "Joe" (not really his name)? No, what about Joe? He was walking around with pictures of his second Ferrari. No I didn't see "Joe," but I did see "Bob," and guess what, he was also walking around with pictures of his second Ferrari. This was years ago, before a major boom in rare coin prices (though Ferrari's have gone up as well). I don't know what the standards are in your neighborhood, but I consider someone with two Ferrari's rich. Those dealers may not report a ton of income, because they find ways to hide it, but a two Ferrari dealer is doing very well. Consider that the person likely has a SUV for a daily driver on top of the two Ferrari's, plus a nice home, possibly two or three homes.
<< <i>
<< <i>what does a good coin dealer make before taxes?
what does an excellent coin dealer make before taxes? >>
Coin dealers are like real estate agents or actors. Those at the very top make a huge percentage of the money, another small group makes a decent living, a big group does okay enough to earn a living, a big section of wannabes keep their "day" jobs.
Most show circuit dealers LIKE attending shows, otherwise they wouldn't be going to so many shows a year. They would be mail order dealers, or graders for a TPG, or stay at home at their local shop. For most, attending shows, being on the road is a plus not a minus, though as with anything too much of a good thing can wear a person down.
A story that I like to repeat is about the two Ferrari dealers. Some years ago, I was walking the bourse at Long Beach and two dealers were shooting the breeze. One said to another did you see "Joe" (not really his name)? No, what about Joe? He was walking around with pictures of his second Ferrari. No I didn't see "Joe," but I did see "Bob," and guess what, he was also walking around with pictures of his second Ferrari. This was years ago, before a major boom in rare coin prices (though Ferrari's have gone up as well). I don't know what the standards are in your neighborhood, but I consider someone with two Ferrari's rich. Those dealers may not report a ton of income, because they find ways to hide it, but a two Ferrari dealer is doing very well. Consider that the person likely has a SUV for a daily driver on top of the two Ferrari's, plus a nice home, possibly two or three homes. >>
........................................
............and the next week there is a warning about bad checks, the Ferraris are repo"d and he loses his trophy wife who now lives in the other house with the pot smoking Franklin half dealer he hates
PS: Life's a Birch !
Camelot
<< <i>A coin dealership is a tough business and getting tougher with each passing year. >>
The same can be said about many businesses.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>That comment on annual earnings is really sidetracking
the thread. Although profit is certainly a substantial consideration
it is not the most important consideration by far.
The thread was and is intended, to place more humanistic aspects,
of a dealers considerations as to business considerations. >>
I think the earnings issue is a very relevant one considering your opening post began with:
1. The usual Trans, hotel, food and local transportation.
2. Security cost in transporting goods
3. Cost of table
Bear....it was you that infused this topic with the financial aspects of dealing coins on a show circuit. If you want to talk monetary expenses.....then discussing monetary gains is not only relevant, but its actually very appropriate.
There are quite a number of fewer dealers nowadays than in the pre 1980's. More and more coin dealers went bust, out of the business, got more stable employment or went part time. Many of the dealers who I know love coins rather than the making money aspect. They make a fair living. Those dealers who trade in slabs and really don't care about coins but love to make money are the dealers who work very, very long hours and travel quite a bit. Coins are no different from any other venture, you love it or you love to make money at it.
TRUTH
Camelot
<< <i>In the few shows I have attended over the years, I have noticed the age
and physical condition of many smaller dealers and it really did not look good. >>
I hope I don't resemble that remark!
Seriously, if at all possible, I feel one must first and foremost enjoy how they earn a living - even if it is not the most lucrative way to make a living. When my kids were younger, I certainly wouldn't have made my living as a coin dealer traveling to shows around the country because spending time with my family and attending my kids' events was more important to me. But when the opportunity came for me to be a full time coin dealer, the timing was such that it was appropriate - my kids were grown and on their own and my hubby and I are both independent enough and have our own interests that we don't mind spending some time apart doing things that we enjoy (but we do make up for it when I am home!
Next, of course you have to balance the expenses with the profits because without the profits, no matter how much you enjoy what you're doing, it won't last long.
But all the things that Bear mentioned about the ability to fill want lists, worrying about security, enjoying the atmosphere and friends/food, etc. - this all falls into the category of whether this line of work is your "cup of tea" because shows are shows - good or bad - but with anything you do, you have the ability to make it a negative or positive experience. If you're not selling at a show, then hopefully you can look for good buys. If you're not finding the material you need for your customers, then look into other avenues - auctions, online inventories, etc. If you're not enjoying the people around you, perhaps it's your own attitude that could use a little adjusting.
Any way, coin shows can be expensive, and sometimes when the show is slow, dealers don't make much money - so for me, I try to plan ahead for "slow" times and work a little harder at other shows to make up for the ones that aren't as profitable. But as I mentioned, for me, at this time in my life, I really place top priority on enjoying my work - and my life in general - because as Bear said, life is too short not to.
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>1. The usual Trans, hotel, food and local transportation.
2. Security cost in transporting goods
3. Cost of table
4. How does one place a value on wear and tear?
Time away from family ?
5. How does one place a cost on possible robbery or physical attack
6. I have attended a number of shows over the past few years. Looking at
the age and physical condition of a number of dealers, many did not look to be in the
best of shape to deal with the strain of attending the show. >>
My best response to each:
1. Business expense or you could just say cost of running the business.
2. Business expense or you could just say cost of running the business.
3. Business expense or you could just say cost of running the business.
4. This is called work. Many of us do this to earn our living.
5. I am a Pharmacist and have looked down the barrel of a loaded 38 and also a loaded sawed off shotgun, both held by drug addicted bad guys. But like I said - we all have to support our families.
6. Go boomers go.
There are also the intangibles to be calculated."
I totally agree. A few years back, I was attending virtually every major show and going to lot viewing at the preshows (for about an 18-24 month time period). This meant at times being away from home on many holidays, such as Labour Day, Memorial Day and, as I recall, even News Years Day one year that I needed to get to FUN early. One show I attended resulted in me being unable to attend a performance of one of the kids at their school. I put an end to that practice of missing performances as quickly as it started. Life's far too short to miss the important things in order to catch every auction or show in all parts of the world. In looking back, I can at least say that at a strong % of all of the shows/invitationals I attended, I had at least one child attending with me for a "quality" "father/son" or "father/daughter" experience (that resulted in both kids getting interested in numismatics that remains to this day). Did it cost me money to miss this show or that show over the years ... of course. There have been many Summer ANA shows missed over the years due to family vacations that came first. Total regrets - 0.
Good post Bear.
Wondercoin
I have collected since the age of 9, I am 57 now. In my first career spanning nearly 30 years I couldn't wait to retire and move on. In my current second career I have no plans to retire as long as I can make it work and enjoy it.
Why?
The friends and people I have met and made, both collectors and dealers alike. Feeding my collector juices by helping others build their collections (I no longer collect personally because I feel its a conflict of interest to a point and not fair to be competing against my own customers). Learning something new all the time by studying and researching a new series. I love the constant learning aspect of the business/hobby. Sharing my knowledge with others or directing them to resources. See new cities and towns. I try to explore a bit everywhere I set up and go to. Figuring out what kind of show each one is going to be and having the flexibility to shift gears to make it work. The recent ANA is a classic example shifting from retail to wholesaling/buying when it became clear there was very little retail that was going to happen.
Bear, while financial aspects always have to be a consideration as it isn't fun unless it's profitable, the intangibles are huge for me and play a bigger part. I don't have a Ferrari and I don't have to be rich to enjoy being a dealer. But I do love coins and I get that need fed all the time. And my 9 year old M3 is still fun for me to drive and running great!
Great post, thanks Bear. I know of a wild hive nearby, I will show you where! You deserve it.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
A. Large multi person and multi department coin dealership
B. Fairly small 1-2 person coin dealership
C.A collector that sells coins perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 of the time. ay or
may not have another regular job or might be retired.
D. A collector that only assists a dealer or sells coins from time to time. Most
definitely has a regular job or is retired and just dabbles a bit for the heck of it.
The answers will certainly differ, not only due to the category of dealer one
finds oneself in , but also the personality of the dealer and their family situation.
To this question, there is no correct or incorrect answer. I am just trying to delve into
what differing views and work style ,various dealers have. In answering a question that
has no wrong response, how can you lose?
Camelot
P.S. When wonderful telemarketers or sales clerks tell me about wonderful travel promotions I have "won"...I just laugh hysterically and hang up or walk away.