Revisiting - David Ganz article on 20th century gold coin regulations/confiscation - Oct 2011

roadrunner

20th century gold coin regulations & confiscation

Some good historical information here including % of US gold coins melted in the 1930's, how collectors like Bareford and Pittman worked around the
govt's gold ownership regulations, and what the govt has officially stated are "rare and unusual" gold coins and therefore exempt from the 1933 EO.
I wasn't aware of how broad that "rare and unusual" term really was. I had always taken it literally. By the govt's definition a 1908 nm saint is rare and unusual.

While this article appears on a company's gold site, it doesn't change the history or the message. An excellent source that brings together many references
from that era into one neat package.

roadrunner

mrearlygold

secondrepublic

Good article. I was not aware the government prosecuted people into the 1960s for illegal gold possession.

This article gives me comfort because my (modest) gold holdings are virtually all in pre-1933 U.S. coins.

roadrunner

The govt could modify their previous rulings at any time along with invoking the 1917 war powers act again. But it is some modest consolation to know that pre-1933
gold coins were exempted last time around...assuming you had no more than 4 of any one specific date/mint. It was enlightening to hear that even pre-1933 foreign gold,
and then later pre-1960 foreign gold was also exempted. So if you're gonna stack some $20's get one of every common date from 1877 onward. Then build 3 more sets.
That should get you 75 or so per set or 300 total....which should cover >95% of stackers.

roadrunner

renman95

The gov't could do anything it wants if the the "crisis" is big enough.

derryb

why outlaw something you can just tax the heck out of? Just proves they aren't very bright.

roadrunner

<< <i>The gov't could do anything it wants if the the "crisis" is big enough. >>



Yes they could...including taking your gold without compensation and tossing you (ie gold bugster) in jail for being an "accomplice" to the financial crisis of the past 4 yrs.
But let's keep the topic to what they did, and why they did it.

roadrunner

jmski52

I have many rare and unusual gold collector coins that were issued after 1933. They are rare and unusual by my own definition. And they are certainly collector coins, because that is how the US government designated them when they sold them to me.

In the early 1960's when I became intrigued by coins, nobody I ever knew had any gold coins. By that time, you could own gold coins if they were collector coins, but nobody did. I never really got an explanation about Gold Certificates back then, either. They existed, but only the government used them? Weird stuff, to my adolescent mind.

I think that collectors like Pittman were simply taking the risks that they felt reasonable at the time. When the government makes a ruling like the Gold Confiscation Act, it still takes time for the impact of the ruling to be interpreted, implemented, enforced, tested in court, clarified, and even modified. In the meantime, you watch and wait, and take a chance if you think you can. Nobody told those collectors that they wouldn't be called into court at some point.

Today is still a different situation as it concerns precious metals. Export of gold won't affect the credit and trade of the US. That's being ruined all on its own, by Congress. That doesn't mean that Uncle Sam won't want your savings. They will. If they make a determination that gold is worth taxing, they'll find a way to go for it. I think they would do much better by taxing stupidity. There's alot more of it around these days, and it's right out in the open and easier to prove.

cohodk

That doesn't mean that Uncle Sam won't want your savings.


Uncle Sam is YOU. Its up to the American people to decide what they want and dont want. History is strewn with Govts who thought they could impose their will rather than their people's.

timcoin

<< <i>That doesn't mean that Uncle Sam won't want your savings.


Uncle Sam is YOU. Its up to the American people to decide what they want and dont want. History is strewn with Govts who thought they could impose their will rather than their people's. >>



I was just going to type, "Isn't the government us?" Thanks for getting it our there first. Though I must say, with what is going on with these protests, and the growing number of idiots this country seems to churn out, I'm not sure I trust us.

topstuf

<< <i>

<< <i>The gov't could do anything it wants if the the "crisis" is big enough. >>



Yes they could...including taking your gold without compensation and tossing you (ie gold bugster) in jail for being an "accomplice" to the financial crisis of the past 4 yrs.
But let's keep the topic to what they did, and why they did it.

roadrunner >>



That's how I would do it. I'd offer $2500.00 per oz with a complete tax amnesty on it and THEN revalue it. So I could get as much as possible without any fanfare and then value it as needed for a currency component.
That way you lead us bugz into complacency and then let us know you screwed the hell out of us.

Pretty?

Yes it is. Very.

topstuf

<< <i>That doesn't mean that Uncle Sam won't want your savings.


Uncle Sam is YOU. Its up to the American people to decide what they want and dont want. History is strewn with Govts who thought they could impose their will rather than their people's. >>



Gee. Sounds familiar. Sorta like no Comex BUY orders allowed in 1980.
The government is not us. We are but cows to milk.

jmski52

Uncle Sam is YOU.

I don't think so. The biggest problem I see with our government is that there is no lobby for the individual. Until the playing field is levelled such that the individual has equal say vs. the lobbyists for unions, big business etc - the government responds to those with the biggest contributions. It's not right. I don't believe that a 100% democracy is best either (a Republic is), but I think that the balance between large and small is all out of whack and needs to be re-balanced.

I keep hearing that banks won't lend because capital is more expensive, even after they got taxpayer "money for nothing" and that is why they are not lending and that is why the economy is not picking up steam. Horsefeathers! Expensive - for whom?

When the banks can privatize their profits while socializing their debts, it appears to me that Uncle Sam is the BANKS, not me. The debt incurred to bail them out (for nothing) is only making it harder and harder for the economy. The newly-created money should have gone directly to taxpayer bank accounts. If there is to be a new Keynesian orgy of spending, let banks be the secondary beneficiaries, not the primary ones in a new spending spree to bail out the economy. And screw the government programs, let private concerns handle the money.

Every time I start to consider the solutions to these problems, I keep coming back to the Founders and the Constitution - with the same realization "dang, these guys really did do a good job of figuring out good governance." Wish we could keep it the way they intended it.

Coyn

<< <i>Uncle Sam is YOU >>



Right

Uncle Sam is made up of control freaks who have no qualms about taking your gold to pay the pensions they promised themselves while making laws about controling your life.

When they come to get you and yours, be sure to remind them they work for you. That goes over real well.

RedTiger

<< <i>

<< <i>That doesn't mean that Uncle Sam won't want your savings.


Uncle Sam is YOU. Its up to the American people to decide what they want and dont want. History is strewn with Govts who thought they could impose their will rather than their people's. >>



I was just going to type, "Isn't the government us?" Thanks for getting it our there first. Though I must say, with what is going on with these protests, and the growing number of idiots this country seems to churn out, I'm not sure I trust us. >>



Maybe the government used to be us, but no longer. Recent polls point to about 25% that think the current government has the consent of the governed. Big money, PACs, unions, full time government lifers and their fully funded lobbyists all have distorted the system. Politicians openly ignore what the people want, often with the excuse that "they know better," though most work towards one goal, getting back in, by any means necessary, including lying cheating, and misdirection using protesters, complicit press corps to destroy opponents with false claims and phoney stories, whatever means they can think of.

Even when the people were thought to rule, the tyranny of the majority can impose terrible things on the minority. Some examples: many disagreed with the draft and the Vietnam War and 50,000 young men paid the ultimate price. Most did not believe in the war, but did believe in the country. Virtually no freedom loving Americans stood up for the Japanese when they were all rounded up and put into detention camps, without hearing, without due process, only based on their mother's mother's heritage. There are many more cases where the mob, or the powers that be, make decisions that might be in hindsight evil or wrong, and have a terrible impact on the minority, whether it be the 20%, the 40% or the 5%.

Gold owners are a tiny minority maybe 5%. The mobs on the street care nothing about the rule of law or that those with gold lived below their means and carefully saved money, while they lived beyond their means usually on borrowed money. They don't care, they want theirs. If some politician came up with a plan to take or tax all the gold away, and it sounded good, the mob will get behind it and the 5% will suffer. Half of Americans don't save any money and some of them make a very good income. How can they ever accumulate any wealth when they live their entire working lives that way?

AuAgPt

<< <i>Gold owners are a tiny minority maybe 5%. The mobs on the street care nothing about the rule of law or that those with gold lived below their means and carefully saved money, while they lived beyond their means usually on borrowed money. They don't care, they want theirs. If some politician came up with a plan to take or tax all the gold away, and it sounded good, the mob will get behind it and the 5% will suffer. Half of Americans don't save any money and some of them make a very good income. How can they ever accumulate any wealth when they live their entire working lives that way? >>



So True!! Very well summarized, agreed 100%. And if I may further expand, if first impressions count during an interview, I probably wouldn't hire any 80% of these thugs. Running around with their iPhones, drinking Starbucks and whining they don't have enough money. Well, cut your hair, quit poopin' in the parks and go work three jobs until you can work two jobs until you can work 1 job. And if you can't find a job, re-educate yourself in a career or skill that's in demand. I have very little sympathy for the current movement. -aap

roadrunner

Maybe the government used to be us, but no longer. Recent polls point to about 25% that think the current government has the consent of the governed. Big money, PACs, unions, full time government lifers and their fully funded lobbyists all have distorted the system. Politicians openly ignore what the people want, often with the excuse that "they know better," though most work towards one goal, getting back in, by any means necessary, including lying cheating, and misdirection using protesters, complicit press corps to destroy opponents with false claims and phoney stories, whatever means they can think of.

Even when the people were thought to rule, the tyranny of the majority can impose terrible things on the minority. Some examples: many disagreed with the draft and the Vietnam War and 50,000 young men paid the ultimate price. Most did not believe in the war, but did believe in the country. Virtually no freedom loving Americans stood up for the Japanese when they were all rounded up and put into detention camps, without hearing, without due process, only based on their mother's mother's heritage. There are many more cases where the mob, or the powers that be, make decisions that might be in hindsight evil or wrong, and have a terrible impact on the minority, whether it be the 20%, the 40% or the 5%.

Gold owners are a tiny minority maybe 5%. The mobs on the street care nothing about the rule of law or that those with gold lived below their means and carefully saved money, while they lived beyond their means usually on borrowed money. They don't care, they want theirs. If some politician came up with a plan to take or tax all the gold away, and it sounded good, the mob will get behind it and the 5% will suffer. Half of Americans don't save any money and some of them make a very good income. How can they ever accumulate any wealth when they live their entire working lives that way?

What he said!

There's no doubt gold bugs will be persecuted/prosecuted to some extent in the coming 3-10 yrs. It's just a matter of whether it stops at excessive taxation on PMs or morphs into
something more onerous in order to please the angry masses who will no doubt agree with govt that gold/oil/commodity bug speculation caused all our problems.

roadrunner

Coyn

<< <i>So True!! Very well summarized, agreed 100%. And if I may further expand, if first impressions count during an interview, I probably wouldn't hire any 80% of these thugs. Running around with their iPhones, drinking Starbucks and whining they don't have enough money. Well, cut your hair, quit poopin' in the parks and go work three jobs until you can work two jobs until you can work 1 job. And if you can't find a job, re-educate yourself in a career or skill that's in demand. I have very little sympathy for the current movement. -aap >>



Maybe you don't understand it very well. Maybe if you spent 4 years in college, have 70K in debt and find that all the jobs have been exported to the lowest bidder overseas you would see different. Myself I have a very good job but I don't take the attitude of "I have mine so FU, that seems to be prevelent. The banks and corporations have bribed, robbed and corrupted the system and the little guy pays taxes, interest and insurance and has little left for food and nothing left for savings.

The system is corrupt to the fedreserve core and just because some of us make big bucks getting our piece of it doesn't mean we should sht on the ones who can't get through the door. They are not lazy or whiners, they are just tired of a government of the elite, by the elite and for the elite.

You can bet that when they come for the gold and silver, the big guys will have all thiers overseas.

golfer72

We would not have these problems if we had one thing. TERM LIMITS! These problems are caused by career politicians. Every office should get one 6 yr term and then out. President right down to dog catcher. All they care about now is getting reelected. Obama always seems like he is campaining.

roadrunner

I ran across this David Ganz article again today while googling and had no clue I had referenced it over 3 years ago in this thread. The long term memory sure goes as you get older.

Worth a read whenever the 1934 Gold reserve act / FDR gold executive order comes up for discussion. Ganz's research shows that about 90 MILL oz of US gold coins were melted from 1933-1939 or roughly about
40% of all the $5's, $10's, and $20's ever minted (approx 1,000 tonnes of gold). I was trying to find how much the US govt gold supplies increased during that same period. Sources vary. Another one I found suggested
that 2800 tonnes of gold were added to the US inventory during the 1930's.

David Ganz

jmski52

Thanks for the refresher, roadrunner. In the use of "rare & unusual" as a criterion for exemption from the 1933 Executive Order, it still makes me apprehensive to think about relying on the government having any self-restraint when it comes to possible confiscation. There's been no lack of executive orders for the whim of the day, so there's absolutely no reason to expect much else, going forward.

Even though 1933 might have been considered a legal precedent at one time, let's not forget that other legal decisions have come since - Nixon's decision to leave the gold standard, legalization of gold ownership, Reagan's re-introduction of US gold coinage, and approval of American Eagle bullion coins for holding in IRAs. These changes also affect what might happen in terms of private gold ownership in the future.

I agree with Ganz that the banks and government continue to create disincentives for holding gold as a longterm retirement asset, and continue to promote spending and borrowing over saving. Whether or not it pays to swim against the current - is a judgment call. In my opinion, the judgment call is dictated more by the "other" government trends that are still in place - overspending, over-promising, massive debt overhang, and almost total lack of accountability.

I continue to vote for reality, not as wishful thinking but as a somber realization that we're gonna have a hard landing, probably in my lifetime.

ricko

That hard landing is getting closer, and it will not be pleasant..... although we can wish it would somehow be avoided, the house of cards cannot withstand the winds of logic and the laws of economics. Cheers, RickO