<< <i> How do know what facts they had? Where did the "facts" come from? Disgruntled employees? Those that didn't like change? Those that bore an ax to grind? What facts? Yes, obviously "The 12" did act on something. Yes they has as many people as a jury trial. But, there was no trial so your analogy bears no fruit. It appears that Mr Shepherd didn't get a chance to defend himself against these so called facts..........MJ >>
MJ, Do you really think the ANA board -- many who have spent a half century or more in service to numismatics, would have unanimously taken action to dimiss Shepherd if there was not compelling evidence of serious wrongdoing, not just people who "didn't like change" or "disgruntled employees?" >>
Frank and Wei
I believe people with generally good intentions can make bad decisions when all the facts aren't represented or are some are tilted and some are just untrue. I believe things can and do snowball out of control quickly in exactly situations like this. I don't believe everything I hear or read. Some of the things that are/were being slung around as truth or fact are so unbelievable that I think that's exactly what they are. It comes down to what's more likely to be true in a lot of cases.
I think Don's comments are very interesting. Good on him.
Caleb, as far as loyalty goes when its earned it is given. This would be one of those times. Sometimes you have to stand with your guy or girl in the face of flying turd balls. So be it. I expect there to be more. Besides it's not blind loyalty in this case. Sorry, it just isn't.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I believe people with generally good intentions can make bad decisions when all the facts aren't represented or are some are tilted and some are just untrue. I believe things can and do snowball out of control quickly in exactly situations like this. I don't believe everything I hear or read. Some of the things that are/were being slung around as truth or fact are so unbelievable that I think that's exactly what they are. It comes down to what's more likely to be true in a lot of cases.
Caleb, as far as loyalty goes when its earned it is given. This would be one of those times. Sometimes you have to stand with your guy or girl in the face of flying turd balls. So be it. I expect there to be more. Besides it's not blind loyalty in this case. Sorry, it just isn't. >>
Mark, this isn't personal but the problem we're having with your opinions is that you seem totally oblivious to the side of the story that isn't Larry's. You are showing symptoms of blind loyalty. You are oblivious to the judgement call of the twelve person ANA board. You are essentially accusing them of coersion, prejudgement and prejudice and are unable to stomach the idea that there is just a possibility that the board's decision could have been even remotely justified.
There are many people who are fans of Larry and you know that I respect him. Hell, without Larry the ANA might not even be around today. However for you it's "have you talked to him?" and "when did you talk to him?" and "did you listen when you talked to him?" If all of us did talk to him do you really think he (or anyone in his position) would openly admit to wrongdoing? To terminate the highest level employee of the organization, who was hired only a short time before and who was (and still is) held in such high regard and promise when he was hired is no easy undertaking. I am certain the ANA did listen to his side of the story and did their homework before having to make that difficult decision.
Do you honestly believe Larry's side of the story to be completely unbiased and not pro-Larry in any way? Do you honestly believe his staff at the ANA were universally disgruntled and were spending all hours of the night plotting his demise? Have you heard whats-her-name's side of the story?
I understand the outcome wasn't the one you were hoping for but to imply it was formed due to negligence or prejudice is short-sighted. Blind loyalty is the ultimate bond of friendship and trust, but it can also cause selective amnesia, inconsideration and unreasonable denial.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I'm not accusing them (the board) of anything except maybe that they didn't have all the facts and perhaps acted on misinformation. That actually happens quite a bit in all walks of life. That's been my entire point. I already conceded in an earlier post that I took it for granted that Larry's version would would be well biased----- well towards Larry. I will say it again, noted. The board acting in unison should also not be surprising.
Listen, do think I want to be dealing with this? I really don't want to be. I just wanted it to end quietly like most. Listen, I just had cancer surgery within the last week (successfully we think) at the ripe old age of "49". I really should be just be concentrating on that. However, this whole issue has rubbed me the wrong way especially when its been played out in the court of public opinion like it has. I've just been pointing out some obvious alternate possibilities within the realm of reason and logic and yes I'm sticking up for a friend under stressful difficult times for the both of us. You do that in good times and bad times and not when it's just convenient. I may be loyal but I'm far from blind. You insulted me, but I have already gotten over it.
Wei, what do you make of Don Willis's comment---- "I have had 3 or 4 people tell me the absolute truth about why Larry was fired. Unfortunately every story was different". That's been the core to my point all along. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Wei, what do you make of Don Willis's comments that he heard several versions of the absolute truth with each of the stories being different. MJ >>
I totally agree with you that I wish this whole affair would quietly fade into the night. What has been done has been done and there is no way to turn back the clock. The most disappointing fact I've learned the last few days is a lot of people aren't upset about the decision of the ANA board or Larry's alleged actions but most upset about not being privy to the gossip. Honestly I despise contributing to these threads as much as you do. As you know we have mutual friends who are close to Larry and everyhing the both of us write about this subject has potential for affecting a lot of other people.
As for Don's comments, I've been exposed to multiple sources of information from all over the spectrum but the only variations are in the minute details. The major points and plots have remained consistent so far, though.
Good luck on your treatment and I'll look forward to visiting with you at the Dearborn show when you're better if not sooner.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>The one thing that seems to keep it going is the continued lack of info. Just spill it out and then we can move on. >>
Agree. Until the facts are known, most dues paying members of the ANA will not move on and many will not renew their membership. >>
Really? I would wager that less then 5% of the membership would even consider dropping their membership over this. >>
I would wager that less than 0.5% of the membership would even consider...
It's time to moveon.org. >>
You guys are quite naive if you think this whole sordid affair will have no effect on recruitment and retention of members.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It's too bad that Larry spoke out. It was a good time for him to say nothing and move on.
I suspect the board see's it as further evidence of having made the right decision.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
In this particular case, I don't know who is right or wrong. But every time I here anything about the ANA (and not just on this topic), I can't help but think what a waste of an organization. I honestly do not know what benefit they really provide the numismatic community.
This whole affair seems way too dramatic, even for a drama queen like Longacre.
Given the issues with the last executive director, I wonder how the membership will react to another knock-down, drag-out.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i> How do know what facts they had? Where did the "facts" come from? Disgruntled employees? Those that didn't like change? Those that bore an ax to grind? What facts? Yes, obviously "The 12" did act on something. Yes they has as many people as a jury trial. But, there was no trial so your analogy bears no fruit. It appears that Mr Shepherd didn't get a chance to defend himself against these so called facts..........MJ >>
MJ, Do you really think the ANA board -- many who have spent a half century or more in service to numismatics, would have unanimously taken action to dimiss Shepherd if there was not compelling evidence of serious wrongdoing, not just people who "didn't like change" or "disgruntled employees?" >>
There seems to be an over abundance of “blind loyalty” here for Mr. Shepherd. Reading some of the post over the past month or so, one would begin to believe that he can walk on water.
The A.N.A. in all probability made the right decision in terminating his employment. As the saying goes, where there is smoke there is fire. I imagine that the cause of the termination was made clear to Mr. Shepherd and noticed that he made no comment to it in his “press release”.
This vilifying of the Board of Governors makes no sense. Independently, they each acted in the “best interest” of the organization and in doing so they acted unanimously.
Mr. Willis says the “biggest loser here is the ANA member” and “if Larry puts together a slate of candidates he could clean house. He’s got my vote.” I do not believe the ANA members have lost anything out of this but have gained the knowledge that there is a “checks and balances” within our organization and that everyone will be held accountable for their actions or inactions. Could Larry’s slate of candidates clean house, yes and the core of the moon could be made out of cream cheese also. To publicly state that you are going to support / vote for someone no matter how aggress his conduct(s) was to cause him being fired is just an example of “blind loyalty”. >>
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
Not true. If it were, coin dealers would already be there, loaded with bags of fresh bagels. Nothing like free food! >>
How true.... >>
Why does free food always seems to taste better?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The A.N.A. in all probability made the right decision in terminating his employment. As the saying goes, where there is smoke there is fire. I imagine that the cause of the termination was made clear to Mr. Shepherd and noticed that he made no comment to it in his “press release”.
This vilifying of the Board of Governors makes no sense. Independently, they each acted in the “best interest” of the organization and in doing so they acted unanimously.
Mr. Willis says the “biggest loser here is the ANA member” and “if Larry puts together a slate of candidates he could clean house. He’s got my vote.” I do not believe the ANA members have lost anything out of this but have gained the knowledge that there is a “checks and balances” within our organization and that everyone will be held accountable for their actions or inactions. Could Larry’s slate of candidates clean house, yes and the core of the moon could be made out of cream cheese also. To publicly state that you are going to support / vote for someone no matter how aggress his conduct(s) was to cause him being fired is just an example of “blind loyalty”. >>
<< <i>In this particular case, I don't know who is right or wrong. But every time I here anything about the ANA (and not just on this topic), I can't help but think what a waste of an organization. I honestly do not know what benefit they really provide the numismatic community. >>
Surely you are joking... if not, then you may want to educate yourself as they provide significant benefits to the numismatic community. Here's the Cliff's Notes version: they have a great library (and library staff), a numismatic school (the Summer Seminar), a museum with some awesome coins, a few of the best and biggest coin shows in the country, a decent monthly magazine about coins...
<< <i>In this particular case, I don't know who is right or wrong. But every time I here anything about the ANA (and not just on this topic), I can't help but think what a waste of an organization. I honestly do not know what benefit they really provide the numismatic community. >>
Surely you are joking... if not, then you may want to educate yourself as they provide significant benefits to the numismatic community. Here's the Cliff's Notes version: they have a great library (and library staff), a numismatic school (the Summer Seminar), a museum with some awesome coins, a few of the best and biggest coin shows in the country, a decent monthly magazine about coins... >>
This is an excellent point worth noting. Go to one summer seminar class and you will understand the benefit of the ANA
Larry did or said something on either a professional or private matter which was not a direct violation but was "interpreted" by one or more of the Board of Governor's as being inconsistent with the "spirit" of the Employee Handbook, the code of ethics in the ANA By Laws, the ANA's position on Conflict of Interest, or the EEOC anti-discrimination or harrassment guidelines.
This "interpretation" caused the board to consider the implications, should the incident or remarks become public, and in leiu of defending Larry's position (which they obviously were not) they chose to do what they considered the easy way out and simply dismiss him, in a vain attempt to avoid yet more negative publicity regarding the ANA.
This seems to have backfired.
I'm also of the opinion that releasing a counter-statement to Larry's published comments was not something that was "in the best interest of the ANA" as it makes the board look like they need to "defend" their position by stating that they were attempting to not make Larry look bad with the terminology they used. "Ended", "terminated", "fired" makes little difference since his employment abruptly came to an end.
Exactly whatever occurred may never be known and if folks are really disgruntled with the current Board of Governors, I would suggest that they throw their hats into the next election or at the very minimum, study up on the list of candidates so that they know who or who not to elect.
On the other hand, it's totally possible, since we've gone through an election or two since the last fiasco, that this environment might not be fueled by specific elected officials.
I don't really know but I do know that I dislike seeing the current board of governors stoop to the level of a playground shouting match.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Despite what we discussed before, suddenly I'm thinking there *was* no severance package. Those usually come with an agreement to (a) not sue and (b) not air dirty laundry.
I have no idea what happened, but is it possible that they were justified in there decision? That maybe they considered this a very serious matter that had to be dealt with? Just asking. AL
As always there are 2 sides to all matters and before condemning LS or the board we wait until everything is made public.
<< <i>My opinion over this entire fieasco is this:
Larry did or said something on either a professional or private matter which was not a direct violation but was "interpreted" by one or more of the Board of Governor's as being inconsistent with the "spirit" of the Employee Handbook, the code of ethics in the ANA By Laws, the ANA's position on Conflict of Interest, or the EEOC anti-discrimination or harrassment guidelines.
This "interpretation" caused the board to consider the implications, should the incident or remarks become public, and in leiu of defending Larry's position (which they obviously were not) they chose to do what they considered the easy way out and simply dismiss him, in a vain attempt to avoid yet more negative publicity regarding the ANA.
This seems to have backfired.
I'm also of the opinion that releasing a counter-statement to Larry's published comments was not something that was "in the best interest of the ANA" as it makes the board look like they need to "defend" their position by stating that they were attempting to not make Larry look bad with the terminology they used. "Ended", "terminated", "fired" makes little difference since his employment abruptly came to an end.
Exactly whatever occurred may never be known and if folks are really disgruntled with the current Board of Governors, I would suggest that they throw their hats into the next election or at the very minimum, study up on the list of candidates so that they know who or who not to elect.
On the other hand, it's totally possible, since we've gone through an election or two since the last fiasco, that this environment might not be fueled by specific elected officials.
I don't really know but I do know that I dislike seeing the current board of governors stoop to the level of a playground shouting match. >>
My opinion over this entire fiasco is this:
Mr. Shepherd did or said something ethical, legal or moral in violation of either the Employee Handbook, code of ethics in the ANA Bylaws, or created a “conflict of Interest” in his ability to manage personal from his position as Executive Director of the ANA.
That the Board of Governors evaluated the situation and instead of taking the easy way out by sweeping the matter under the rug and pretending it didn’t happen, decided to address the matter head on by unanimously voting to terminate said employee after an investigation.
Mr. Shepherd, knowing that the Board of Governors could not comment on the particulars of the personnel action issued a “press release” spinning his side of the story.
That the Board of Governors has handled themselves and this entire matter with integrity and professionalism.
That some members of this forum are upset with the Board of Governors mostly because they want to know the “juicy details” behind the termination but the Board of Governors are respecting Mr. Shepherd’s privacy by keeping the personnel record(s) privileged.
<< <i>I do find it interesting that LS didn't mention why. >>
my mind is still open, but interesting point.
if he's going to go out an say it was wrongful, he better be able to back it up with a story, or just let it drop. >>
He did not say it was a wrongful dismissal, he said he did not do anything wrong.
Larry Shepherd and the Board of Governors are obviously at odds with what may or may not have occured and whether or not it is in line with certain policies of the ANA.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>My opinion over this entire fieasco is this:
Larry did or said something on either a professional or private matter which was not a direct violation but was "interpreted" by one or more of the Board of Governor's as being inconsistent with the "spirit" of the Employee Handbook, the code of ethics in the ANA By Laws, the ANA's position on Conflict of Interest, or the EEOC anti-discrimination or harrassment guidelines.
This "interpretation" caused the board to consider the implications, should the incident or remarks become public, and in leiu of defending Larry's position (which they obviously were not) they chose to do what they considered the easy way out and simply dismiss him, in a vain attempt to avoid yet more negative publicity regarding the ANA.
This seems to have backfired.
I'm also of the opinion that releasing a counter-statement to Larry's published comments was not something that was "in the best interest of the ANA" as it makes the board look like they need to "defend" their position by stating that they were attempting to not make Larry look bad with the terminology they used. "Ended", "terminated", "fired" makes little difference since his employment abruptly came to an end.
Exactly whatever occurred may never be known and if folks are really disgruntled with the current Board of Governors, I would suggest that they throw their hats into the next election or at the very minimum, study up on the list of candidates so that they know who or who not to elect.
On the other hand, it's totally possible, since we've gone through an election or two since the last fiasco, that this environment might not be fueled by specific elected officials.
I don't really know but I do know that I dislike seeing the current board of governors stoop to the level of a playground shouting match. >>
My opinion over this entire fiasco is this:
Mr. Shepherd did or said something ethical, legal or moral in violation of either the Employee Handbook, code of ethics in the ANA Bylaws, or created a “conflict of Interest” in his ability to manage personal from his position as Executive Director of the ANA.
That the Board of Governors evaluated the situation and instead of taking the easy way out by sweeping the matter under the rug and pretending it didn’t happen, decided to address the matter head on by unanimously voting to terminate said employee after an investigation.
Mr. Shepherd, knowing that the Board of Governors could not comment on the particulars of the personnel action issued a “press release” spinning his side of the story.
That the Board of Governors has handled themselves and this entire matter with integrity and professionalism.
That some members of this forum are upset with the Board of Governors mostly because they want to know the “juicy details” behind the termination but the Board of Governors are respecting Mr. Shepherd’s privacy by keeping the personnel record(s) privileged. >>
Thanks for posting the exact opposite of what I've posted Caleb. It shows ingenuity and a wee bit of bias towards the board. Seeing as how Larry didn't have a clue as to why he was being put on administrative leave, I'm sure it was something very, very bad.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I have no idea what happened, but is it possible that they were justified in there decision? That maybe they considered this a very serious matter that had to be dealt with? Just asking. AL
As always there are 2 sides to all matters and before condemning LS or the board we wait until everything is made public. >>
If we knew what it was we could decide for ourselves if it was justified or not.
I can say, I am disappointed in the A.N.A. The Board has a Membership to which they are responsible to, but they hide behind their cloaks and speak in innuendo's . It seems the A.N.A. is the " Drama Queen " of the Numismatic Industry.
<< <i>I have no idea what happened, but is it possible that they were justified in there decision? That maybe they considered this a very serious matter that had to be dealt with? Just asking. AL
As always there are 2 sides to all matters and before condemning LS or the board we wait until everything is made public. >>
If we knew what it was we could decide for ourselves if it was justified or not. >>
It's obvously something which cannot be "definitively" proven and quite possibly based upon "innuendo" and "rumors" which "might" look bad for the ANA. It definitely, at this point in time, looks bad for Larry though since he was the one that got fired.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>My opinion over this entire fieasco is this:
Larry did or said something on either a professional or private matter which was not a direct violation but was "interpreted" by one or more of the Board of Governor's as being inconsistent with the "spirit" of the Employee Handbook, the code of ethics in the ANA By Laws, the ANA's position on Conflict of Interest, or the EEOC anti-discrimination or harrassment guidelines.
This "interpretation" caused the board to consider the implications, should the incident or remarks become public, and in leiu of defending Larry's position (which they obviously were not) they chose to do what they considered the easy way out and simply dismiss him, in a vain attempt to avoid yet more negative publicity regarding the ANA.
This seems to have backfired.
I'm also of the opinion that releasing a counter-statement to Larry's published comments was not something that was "in the best interest of the ANA" as it makes the board look like they need to "defend" their position by stating that they were attempting to not make Larry look bad with the terminology they used. "Ended", "terminated", "fired" makes little difference since his employment abruptly came to an end.
Exactly whatever occurred may never be known and if folks are really disgruntled with the current Board of Governors, I would suggest that they throw their hats into the next election or at the very minimum, study up on the list of candidates so that they know who or who not to elect.
On the other hand, it's totally possible, since we've gone through an election or two since the last fiasco, that this environment might not be fueled by specific elected officials.
I don't really know but I do know that I dislike seeing the current board of governors stoop to the level of a playground shouting match. >>
My opinion over this entire fiasco is this:
Mr. Shepherd did or said something ethical, legal or moral in violation of either the Employee Handbook, code of ethics in the ANA Bylaws, or created a “conflict of Interest” in his ability to manage personal from his position as Executive Director of the ANA.
That the Board of Governors evaluated the situation and instead of taking the easy way out by sweeping the matter under the rug and pretending it didn’t happen, decided to address the matter head on by unanimously voting to terminate said employee after an investigation.
Mr. Shepherd, knowing that the Board of Governors could not comment on the particulars of the personnel action issued a “press release” spinning his side of the story.
That the Board of Governors has handled themselves and this entire matter with integrity and professionalism.
That some members of this forum are upset with the Board of Governors mostly because they want to know the “juicy details” behind the termination but the Board of Governors are respecting Mr. Shepherd’s privacy by keeping the personnel record(s) privileged. >>
Thanks for posting the exact opposite of what I've posted Caleb. It shows ingenuity and a wee bit of bias towards the board. Seeing as how Larry didn't have a clue as to why he was being put on administrative leave, I'm sure it was something very, very bad. >>
Thanks for noticing Lee. I wanted to point out that there are “two” sides to a story with the truth usually somewhere in the middle.
I realize that Mr. Shepherd stated to someone or somewhere that he didn’t have a clue as to why he was being put on administrative leave, I’m just not buying it.
I say let's just leave it be. There are reasons for details not being released. I'm happy Larry has found employment, and support the ANA for their discretion. This is a reversal of how I felt earlier in the week, but sometimes there are things better left private. 12 governors agreed; we voted them in and they're acting on our behalf - have some trust. 'Nuf said.
Have bought and sold on BST, many references available when asked.
The previous board had to take action but wanted the new board to take some of the heat too. It is likely that even if any of the Governors felt that there is some leeway in anything but dismissal, they would have liked to take it. So it must be is written in the by-laws that dismissal is the only action the Board could take.
I wish Larry the best at the new place at 31 N. Clark St. He'll bring a wealth of talent to Harlan Berk's business.
<< <i>Doesn't really matter who is right or wrong in this matter...
The Board of Governors or the Board of Directorsof any organization have the right to replace any CEO or President.
Happens all the time in public and private organizations......
What strikes me about the ANA comment is the unaminity of the decision..........that says alot. >>
Congress was fairly united in the decision to go to war in Iraq. Of course, a lot of those opinions have changed based upon the lack of WMD's as was purported at the time and I see this action no differently.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<<< Congress was fairly united in the decision to go to war in Iraq. Of course, a lot of those opinions have changed based upon the lack of WMD's as was purported at the time and I see this action no differently. >>>
That's a very good point. And who can forget an entire jury of his peers voted OJ Simpson' not guilty' of murder.
In any case, this entire drama does not affect me in the least and has become rather dull, so I'm going back to episode #668 of Dark Shadows now.
Comments
<< <i>I have had 3 or 4 people tell me the absolute truth about why Larry was fired.
Unfortunately every story was different.
The biggest loser here is the ANA member. As a Life Member I certainly do not want to regress back to the ways of the past.
I say again, if Larry puts together a slate of candidates he could clean house. He's got my vote. >>
Mine as well.
My question Don, though, is this...if Larry asks: you, Warren, Printz, Laura, etc. to run on his slate, will you be there?
<< <i>
<< <i>
How do know what facts they had? Where did the "facts" come from? Disgruntled employees? Those that didn't like change? Those that bore an ax to grind? What facts? Yes, obviously "The 12" did act on something. Yes they has as many people as a jury trial. But, there was no trial so your analogy bears no fruit. It appears that Mr Shepherd didn't get a chance to defend himself against these so called facts..........MJ >>
MJ, Do you really think the ANA board -- many who have spent a half century or more in service to numismatics, would have unanimously taken action to
dimiss Shepherd if there was not compelling evidence of serious wrongdoing, not just people who "didn't like change" or "disgruntled
employees?" >>
Frank and Wei
I believe people with generally good intentions can make bad decisions when all the facts aren't represented or are some are tilted and some are just untrue. I believe things can and do snowball out of control quickly in exactly situations like this. I don't believe everything I hear or read. Some of the things that are/were being slung around as truth or fact are so unbelievable that I think that's exactly what they are. It comes down to what's more likely to be true in a lot of cases.
I think Don's comments are very interesting. Good on him.
Caleb, as far as loyalty goes when its earned it is given. This would be one of those times. Sometimes you have to stand with your guy or girl in the face of flying turd balls. So be it. I expect there to be more. Besides it's not blind loyalty in this case. Sorry, it just isn't.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I believe people with generally good intentions can make bad decisions when all the facts aren't represented or are some are tilted and some are just untrue. I believe things can and do snowball out of control quickly in exactly situations like this. I don't believe everything I hear or read. Some of the things that are/were being slung around as truth or fact are so unbelievable that I think that's exactly what they are. It comes down to what's more likely to be true in a lot of cases.
Caleb, as far as loyalty goes when its earned it is given. This would be one of those times. Sometimes you have to stand with your guy or girl in the face of flying turd balls. So be it. I expect there to be more. Besides it's not blind loyalty in this case. Sorry, it just isn't. >>
Mark, this isn't personal but the problem we're having with your opinions is that you seem totally oblivious to the side of the story that isn't Larry's. You are showing symptoms of blind loyalty. You are oblivious to the judgement call of the twelve person ANA board. You are essentially accusing them of coersion, prejudgement and prejudice and are unable to stomach the idea that there is just a possibility that the board's decision could have been even remotely justified.
There are many people who are fans of Larry and you know that I respect him. Hell, without Larry the ANA might not even be around today. However for you it's "have you talked to him?" and "when did you talk to him?" and "did you listen when you talked to him?" If all of us did talk to him do you really think he (or anyone in his position) would openly admit to wrongdoing? To terminate the highest level employee of the organization, who was hired only a short time before and who was (and still is) held in such high regard and promise when he was hired is no easy undertaking. I am certain the ANA did listen to his side of the story and did their homework before having to make that difficult decision.
Do you honestly believe Larry's side of the story to be completely unbiased and not pro-Larry in any way? Do you honestly believe his staff at the ANA were universally disgruntled and were spending all hours of the night plotting his demise? Have you heard whats-her-name's side of the story?
I understand the outcome wasn't the one you were hoping for but to imply it was formed due to negligence or prejudice is short-sighted. Blind loyalty is the ultimate bond of friendship and trust, but it can also cause selective amnesia, inconsideration and unreasonable denial.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I'm not accusing them (the board) of anything except maybe that they didn't have all the facts and perhaps acted on misinformation. That actually happens quite a bit in all walks of life. That's been my entire point. I already conceded in an earlier post that I took it for granted that Larry's version would would be well biased----- well towards Larry. I will say it again, noted. The board acting in unison should also not be surprising.
Listen, do think I want to be dealing with this? I really don't want to be. I just wanted it to end quietly like most. Listen, I just had cancer surgery within the last week (successfully we think) at the ripe old age of "49". I really should be just be concentrating on that. However, this whole issue has rubbed me the wrong way especially when its been played out in the court of public opinion like it has. I've just been pointing out some obvious alternate possibilities within the realm of reason and logic and yes I'm sticking up for a friend under stressful difficult times for the both of us. You do that in good times and bad times and not when it's just convenient. I may be loyal but I'm far from blind. You insulted me, but I have already gotten over it.
Wei, what do you make of Don Willis's comment---- "I have had 3 or 4 people tell me the absolute truth about why Larry was fired. Unfortunately every story was different". That's been the core to my point all along. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Wei, what do you make of Don Willis's comments that he heard several versions of the absolute truth with each of the stories being different. MJ >>
I totally agree with you that I wish this whole affair would quietly fade into the night. What has been done has been done and there is no way to turn back the clock. The most disappointing fact I've learned the last few days is a lot of people aren't upset about the decision of the ANA board or Larry's alleged actions but most upset about not being privy to the gossip. Honestly I despise contributing to these threads as much as you do. As you know we have mutual friends who are close to Larry and everyhing the both of us write about this subject has potential for affecting a lot of other people.
As for Don's comments, I've been exposed to multiple sources of information from all over the spectrum but the only variations are in the minute details. The major points and plots have remained consistent so far, though.
Good luck on your treatment and I'll look forward to visiting with you at the Dearborn show when you're better if not sooner.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
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<< <i>The one thing that seems to keep it going is the continued lack of info. Just spill it out and then we can move on. >>
Agree. Until the facts are known, most dues paying members of the ANA will not move on and many will not renew their membership. >>
Really?
I would wager that less then 5% of the membership would even consider dropping their membership over this. >>
I would wager that less than 0.5% of the membership would even consider...
It's time to moveon.org.
You guys are quite naive if you think this whole sordid affair will have no effect on recruitment and retention of members.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The one thing that seems to keep it going is the continued lack of info. Just spill it out and then we can move on. >>
Agree. Until the facts are known, most dues paying members of the ANA will not move on and many will not renew their membership. >>
Really?
I would wager that less then 5% of the membership would even consider dropping their membership over this. >>
I would wager that less than 0.5% of the membership would even consider...
It's time to moveon.org.
You guys are quite naive if you think this whole sordid affair will have no effect on recruitment and retention of members. >>
You guys that think this will have a major effect on recruitment and retention of members are equally naive.
It's too bad that Larry spoke out. It was a good time for him to say nothing and move on.
I suspect the board see's it as further evidence of having made the right decision.
<< <i>You guys are quite naive if you think this whole sordid affair will have no effect on recruitment and retention of members. >>
I would say that the majority of ANA members have no knowledge of this entire episode (or the previous one).
Given the issues with the last executive director, I wonder how the membership will react to another knock-down, drag-out.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>
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<< <i>
How do know what facts they had? Where did the "facts" come from? Disgruntled employees? Those that didn't like change? Those that bore an ax to grind? What facts? Yes, obviously "The 12" did act on something. Yes they has as many people as a jury trial. But, there was no trial so your analogy bears no fruit. It appears that Mr Shepherd didn't get a chance to defend himself against these so called facts..........MJ >>
MJ, Do you really think the ANA board -- many who have spent a half century or more in service to numismatics, would have unanimously taken action to
dimiss Shepherd if there was not compelling evidence of serious wrongdoing, not just people who "didn't like change" or "disgruntled
employees?" >>
There seems to be an over abundance of “blind loyalty” here for Mr. Shepherd. Reading some of the post over the past month or so, one would begin to believe that he can walk on water.
The A.N.A. in all probability made the right decision in terminating his employment. As the saying goes, where there is smoke there is fire. I imagine that the cause of the termination was made clear to Mr. Shepherd and noticed that he made no comment to it in his “press release”.
This vilifying of the Board of Governors makes no sense. Independently, they each acted in the “best interest” of the organization and in doing so they acted unanimously.
Mr. Willis says the “biggest loser here is the ANA member” and “if Larry puts together a slate of candidates he could clean house. He’s got my vote.” I do not believe the ANA members have lost anything out of this but have gained the knowledge that there is a “checks and balances” within our organization and that everyone will be held accountable for their actions or inactions. Could Larry’s slate of candidates clean house, yes and the core of the moon could be made out of cream cheese also. To publicly state that you are going to support / vote for someone no matter how aggress his conduct(s) was to cause him being fired is just an example of “blind loyalty”. >>
Not true. If it were, coin dealers would already be there, loaded with bags of fresh bagels. Nothing like free food!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>the moon could be made out of cream cheese
Not true. If it were, coin dealers would already be there, loaded with bags of fresh bagels. Nothing like free food! >>
How true....
<< <i>
<< <i>the moon could be made out of cream cheese
Not true. If it were, coin dealers would already be there, loaded with bags of fresh bagels. Nothing like free food! >>
How true.... >>
Why does free food always seems to taste better?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This vilifying of the Board of Governors makes no sense. Independently, they each acted in the “best interest” of the organization and in doing so they acted unanimously.
Mr. Willis says the “biggest loser here is the ANA member” and “if Larry puts together a slate of candidates he could clean house. He’s got my vote.” I do not believe the ANA members have lost anything out of this but have gained the knowledge that there is a “checks and balances” within our organization and that everyone will be held accountable for their actions or inactions. Could Larry’s slate of candidates clean house, yes and the core of the moon could be made out of cream cheese also. To publicly state that you are going to support / vote for someone no matter how aggress his conduct(s) was to cause him being fired is just an example of “blind loyalty”. >>
Well said and I agree!!
<< <i>In this particular case, I don't know who is right or wrong. But every time I here anything about the ANA (and not just on this topic), I can't help but think what a waste of an organization. I honestly do not know what benefit they really provide the numismatic community. >>
Surely you are joking... if not, then you may want to educate yourself as they provide significant benefits to the numismatic community. Here's the Cliff's Notes version: they have a great library (and library staff), a numismatic school (the Summer Seminar), a museum with some awesome coins, a few of the best and biggest coin shows in the country, a decent monthly magazine about coins...
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>
<< <i>In this particular case, I don't know who is right or wrong. But every time I here anything about the ANA (and not just on this topic), I can't help but think what a waste of an organization. I honestly do not know what benefit they really provide the numismatic community. >>
Surely you are joking... if not, then you may want to educate yourself as they provide significant benefits to the numismatic community. Here's the Cliff's Notes version: they have a great library (and library staff), a numismatic school (the Summer Seminar), a museum with some awesome coins, a few of the best and biggest coin shows in the country, a decent monthly magazine about coins... >>
This is an excellent point worth noting. Go to one summer seminar class and you will understand the benefit of the ANA
Tom
<< <i>This whole affair seems way too dramatic, even for a drama queen like Longacre.
Given the issues with the last executive director, I wonder how the membership will react to another knock-down, drag-out. >>
Especially since they are footing the bill for another 3 ring circus.
Larry did or said something on either a professional or private matter which was not a direct violation but was "interpreted" by one or more of the Board of Governor's as being inconsistent with the "spirit" of the Employee Handbook, the code of ethics in the ANA By Laws, the ANA's position on Conflict of Interest, or the EEOC anti-discrimination or harrassment guidelines.
This "interpretation" caused the board to consider the implications, should the incident or remarks become public, and in leiu of defending Larry's position (which they obviously were not) they chose to do what they considered the easy way out and simply dismiss him, in a vain attempt to avoid yet more negative publicity regarding the ANA.
This seems to have backfired.
I'm also of the opinion that releasing a counter-statement to Larry's published comments was not something that was "in the best interest of the ANA" as it makes the board look like they need to "defend" their position by stating that they were attempting to not make Larry look bad with the terminology they used. "Ended", "terminated", "fired" makes little difference since his employment abruptly came to an end.
Exactly whatever occurred may never be known and if folks are really disgruntled with the current Board of Governors, I would suggest that they throw their hats into the next election or at the very minimum, study up on the list of candidates so that they know who or who not to elect.
On the other hand, it's totally possible, since we've gone through an election or two since the last fiasco, that this environment might not be fueled by specific elected officials.
I don't really know but I do know that I dislike seeing the current board of governors stoop to the level of a playground shouting match.
The name is LEE!
AL
As always there are 2 sides to all matters and before condemning LS or the board we wait until everything is made public.
<< <i>My opinion over this entire fieasco is this:
Larry did or said something on either a professional or private matter which was not a direct violation but was "interpreted" by one or more of the Board of Governor's as being inconsistent with the "spirit" of the Employee Handbook, the code of ethics in the ANA By Laws, the ANA's position on Conflict of Interest, or the EEOC anti-discrimination or harrassment guidelines.
This "interpretation" caused the board to consider the implications, should the incident or remarks become public, and in leiu of defending Larry's position (which they obviously were not) they chose to do what they considered the easy way out and simply dismiss him, in a vain attempt to avoid yet more negative publicity regarding the ANA.
This seems to have backfired.
I'm also of the opinion that releasing a counter-statement to Larry's published comments was not something that was "in the best interest of the ANA" as it makes the board look like they need to "defend" their position by stating that they were attempting to not make Larry look bad with the terminology they used. "Ended", "terminated", "fired" makes little difference since his employment abruptly came to an end.
Exactly whatever occurred may never be known and if folks are really disgruntled with the current Board of Governors, I would suggest that they throw their hats into the next election or at the very minimum, study up on the list of candidates so that they know who or who not to elect.
On the other hand, it's totally possible, since we've gone through an election or two since the last fiasco, that this environment might not be fueled by specific elected officials.
I don't really know but I do know that I dislike seeing the current board of governors stoop to the level of a playground shouting match. >>
My opinion over this entire fiasco is this:
Mr. Shepherd did or said something ethical, legal or moral in violation of either the Employee Handbook, code of ethics in the ANA Bylaws, or created a “conflict of Interest” in his ability to manage personal from his position as Executive Director of the ANA.
That the Board of Governors evaluated the situation and instead of taking the easy way out by sweeping the matter under the rug and pretending it didn’t happen, decided to address the matter head on by unanimously voting to terminate said employee after an investigation.
Mr. Shepherd, knowing that the Board of Governors could not comment on the particulars of the personnel action issued a “press release” spinning his side of the story.
That the Board of Governors has handled themselves and this entire matter with integrity and professionalism.
That some members of this forum are upset with the Board of Governors mostly because they want to know the “juicy details” behind the termination but the Board of Governors are respecting Mr. Shepherd’s privacy by keeping the personnel record(s) privileged.
<< <i>I do find it interesting that LS didn't mention why. >>
my mind is still open, but interesting point.
if he's going to go out an say it was wrongful, he better be able to back it up with a story, or just let it drop.
<< <i>
<< <i>I do find it interesting that LS didn't mention why. >>
my mind is still open, but interesting point.
if he's going to go out an say it was wrongful, he better be able to back it up with a story, or just let it drop. >>
He did not say it was a wrongful dismissal, he said he did not do anything wrong.
Larry Shepherd and the Board of Governors are obviously at odds with what may or may not have occured and whether or not it is in line with certain policies of the ANA.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>My opinion over this entire fieasco is this:
Larry did or said something on either a professional or private matter which was not a direct violation but was "interpreted" by one or more of the Board of Governor's as being inconsistent with the "spirit" of the Employee Handbook, the code of ethics in the ANA By Laws, the ANA's position on Conflict of Interest, or the EEOC anti-discrimination or harrassment guidelines.
This "interpretation" caused the board to consider the implications, should the incident or remarks become public, and in leiu of defending Larry's position (which they obviously were not) they chose to do what they considered the easy way out and simply dismiss him, in a vain attempt to avoid yet more negative publicity regarding the ANA.
This seems to have backfired.
I'm also of the opinion that releasing a counter-statement to Larry's published comments was not something that was "in the best interest of the ANA" as it makes the board look like they need to "defend" their position by stating that they were attempting to not make Larry look bad with the terminology they used. "Ended", "terminated", "fired" makes little difference since his employment abruptly came to an end.
Exactly whatever occurred may never be known and if folks are really disgruntled with the current Board of Governors, I would suggest that they throw their hats into the next election or at the very minimum, study up on the list of candidates so that they know who or who not to elect.
On the other hand, it's totally possible, since we've gone through an election or two since the last fiasco, that this environment might not be fueled by specific elected officials.
I don't really know but I do know that I dislike seeing the current board of governors stoop to the level of a playground shouting match. >>
My opinion over this entire fiasco is this:
Mr. Shepherd did or said something ethical, legal or moral in violation of either the Employee Handbook, code of ethics in the ANA Bylaws, or created a “conflict of Interest” in his ability to manage personal from his position as Executive Director of the ANA.
That the Board of Governors evaluated the situation and instead of taking the easy way out by sweeping the matter under the rug and pretending it didn’t happen, decided to address the matter head on by unanimously voting to terminate said employee after an investigation.
Mr. Shepherd, knowing that the Board of Governors could not comment on the particulars of the personnel action issued a “press release” spinning his side of the story.
That the Board of Governors has handled themselves and this entire matter with integrity and professionalism.
That some members of this forum are upset with the Board of Governors mostly because they want to know the “juicy details” behind the termination but the Board of Governors are respecting Mr. Shepherd’s privacy by keeping the personnel record(s) privileged. >>
Thanks for posting the exact opposite of what I've posted Caleb. It shows ingenuity and a wee bit of bias towards the board. Seeing as how Larry didn't have a clue as to why he was being put on administrative leave, I'm sure it was something very, very bad.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I have no idea what happened, but is it possible that they were justified in there decision? That maybe they considered this a very serious matter that had to be dealt with? Just asking.
AL
As always there are 2 sides to all matters and before condemning LS or the board we wait until everything is made public. >>
If we knew what it was we could decide for ourselves if it was justified or not.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have no idea what happened, but is it possible that they were justified in there decision? That maybe they considered this a very serious matter that had to be dealt with? Just asking.
AL
As always there are 2 sides to all matters and before condemning LS or the board we wait until everything is made public. >>
If we knew what it was we could decide for ourselves if it was justified or not. >>
It's obvously something which cannot be "definitively" proven and quite possibly based upon "innuendo" and "rumors" which "might" look bad for the ANA. It definitely, at this point in time, looks bad for Larry though since he was the one that got fired.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>My opinion over this entire fieasco is this:
Larry did or said something on either a professional or private matter which was not a direct violation but was "interpreted" by one or more of the Board of Governor's as being inconsistent with the "spirit" of the Employee Handbook, the code of ethics in the ANA By Laws, the ANA's position on Conflict of Interest, or the EEOC anti-discrimination or harrassment guidelines.
This "interpretation" caused the board to consider the implications, should the incident or remarks become public, and in leiu of defending Larry's position (which they obviously were not) they chose to do what they considered the easy way out and simply dismiss him, in a vain attempt to avoid yet more negative publicity regarding the ANA.
This seems to have backfired.
I'm also of the opinion that releasing a counter-statement to Larry's published comments was not something that was "in the best interest of the ANA" as it makes the board look like they need to "defend" their position by stating that they were attempting to not make Larry look bad with the terminology they used. "Ended", "terminated", "fired" makes little difference since his employment abruptly came to an end.
Exactly whatever occurred may never be known and if folks are really disgruntled with the current Board of Governors, I would suggest that they throw their hats into the next election or at the very minimum, study up on the list of candidates so that they know who or who not to elect.
On the other hand, it's totally possible, since we've gone through an election or two since the last fiasco, that this environment might not be fueled by specific elected officials.
I don't really know but I do know that I dislike seeing the current board of governors stoop to the level of a playground shouting match. >>
My opinion over this entire fiasco is this:
Mr. Shepherd did or said something ethical, legal or moral in violation of either the Employee Handbook, code of ethics in the ANA Bylaws, or created a “conflict of Interest” in his ability to manage personal from his position as Executive Director of the ANA.
That the Board of Governors evaluated the situation and instead of taking the easy way out by sweeping the matter under the rug and pretending it didn’t happen, decided to address the matter head on by unanimously voting to terminate said employee after an investigation.
Mr. Shepherd, knowing that the Board of Governors could not comment on the particulars of the personnel action issued a “press release” spinning his side of the story.
That the Board of Governors has handled themselves and this entire matter with integrity and professionalism.
That some members of this forum are upset with the Board of Governors mostly because they want to know the “juicy details” behind the termination but the Board of Governors are respecting Mr. Shepherd’s privacy by keeping the personnel record(s) privileged. >>
Thanks for posting the exact opposite of what I've posted Caleb. It shows ingenuity and a wee bit of bias towards the board. Seeing as how Larry didn't have a clue as to why he was being put on administrative leave, I'm sure it was something very, very bad. >>
Thanks for noticing Lee. I wanted to point out that there are “two” sides to a story with the truth usually somewhere in the middle.
I realize that Mr. Shepherd stated to someone or somewhere that he didn’t have a clue as to why he was being put on administrative leave, I’m just not buying it.
The Board of Governors or the Board of Directorsof any organization have the right to replace any CEO or President.
Happens all the time in public and private organizations......
What strikes me about the ANA comment is the unaminity of the decision..........that says alot.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I wish Larry the best at the new place at 31 N. Clark St. He'll bring a wealth of talent to Harlan Berk's business.
<< <i>Doesn't really matter who is right or wrong in this matter...
The Board of Governors or the Board of Directorsof any organization have the right to replace any CEO or President.
Happens all the time in public and private organizations......
What strikes me about the ANA comment is the unaminity of the decision..........that says alot. >>
Congress was fairly united in the decision to go to war in Iraq. Of course, a lot of those opinions have changed based upon the lack of WMD's as was purported at the time and I see this action no differently.
The name is LEE!
It has created some interesting discussion.
Russ, NCNE
That's a very good point. And who can forget an entire jury of his peers voted OJ Simpson' not guilty' of murder.
In any case, this entire drama does not affect me in the least and has become rather dull, so I'm going back to episode #668 of Dark Shadows now.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."