Interesting Article on Private Ownership of Error Coins

ThePennyLady

Several of us have some fascinating and outrageous error coins, and I just read this Coin World article clarifying the Mint’s position on private ownership of error coins.
Mint Clarifies Ownership of Coins

The article discusses the minting process and how coins are legally issued by the mint, stating:

“There are only two ways for nonexpendable property belonging to the Mint lawfully to be removed from the Mint facility or come into the hands of a private owner: (1) proper sale of the property as a numismatic item; or (2) proper disposal of the property through the General Services Administration (GSA), commonly through public auction” ...

So what are your thoughts and do you think your own error is "legal"?

LindeDad

I thought that only the Executive Branch of the government deemed it's self infallible.

BillJones

I thought that a coin was legal to own once it had been “monetized” and issued. As such a error coin that crops up in a government bag of issued coins has been “monetized” and is legal to own. The “monetized” issue was the whole thing with the recent court decision over the 1933 double eagles. The government held the position that those pieces were not “coins” because they are never been “monetized” and issued legally.

BUT if you buy an error coin that was been stolen from the mint, then you might be in legal trouble ...

dcarr

<< <i>Several of us have some fascinating and outrageous error coins, and I just read this Coin World article clarifying the Mint’s position on private ownership of error coins.
Mint Clarifies Ownership of Coins

The article discusses the minting process and how coins are legally issued by the mint, stating:

“There are only two ways for nonexpendable property belonging to the Mint lawfully to be removed from the Mint facility or come into the hands of a private owner: (1) proper sale of the property as a numismatic item; or (2) proper disposal of the property through the General Services Administration (GSA), commonly through public auction” ...

So what are your thoughts and do you think your own error is "legal"? >>



Well, these were sold at auction through the GSA, so I guess they are legal:

gonzer

Yowza Dan! Those feed fingers and the collar are exceptional.

Coin Finder

What is "proper sale"

ctf_error_coins

I have thousands of error coins and all are legal to own.

I have receipts for all of my coins bought from hundreds of different people or dealers.

I have never bought, sold or traded any of the MEL dollars.

ctf_error_coins

Dcarr, WOW Just Awesome!!!!

cladking

<< <i>I thought that a coin was legal to own once it had been “monetized” and issued. As such a error coin that crops up in a government bag of issued coins has been “monetized” and is legal to own. The “monetized” issue was the whole thing with the recent court decision over the 1933 double eagles. The government held the position that those pieces were not “coins” because they are never been “monetized” and issued legally.

BUT if you buy an error coin that was been stolen from the mint, then you might be in legal trouble ... >>



They just invented "monetizing" coins for the '33 eagle.

Yes, coins are monetized when they leave the mint but there is no difference between
a monetized coin and one that isn't monetized except that the mint makes a profit on the
former and not the latter. (Don't ask me how they can afford to sell $20 gold pieces for
only $20 but this is government for you. )

The mint is a factory and they issue product by the truck load. They don't even count
coins any longer but just weight them instead. They have no way of knowing what is in
the bag of coins, merely its weight and what they intended to put in it.

Eventually they could reclaim all the errors and then all the coins since collectors and con-
sumers can't prove the coins were legally issued. They own the coins anyway since you
aren't even allowed tomelt your own pennies and nickels.

BillJones

<< <i>I have thousands of error coins and all are legal to own.

I have receipts for all of my coins bought from hundreds of different people or dealers.

I have never bought, sold or traded any of the MEL dollars. >>



According the law the fact that you have receipts means nothing. A seller can convey no better title for something to you than he has himself. Therefore if he sells you an error coin that one of these crooked mint employees stole, technically the government can take it from you because none of the people who handled it has clear title. As for your run-of-the mill errors, I don’t think you should have any problems.

What it does mean is that I would not want to be the guy who has those dollar / quarter mules because some of those coins were stolen from the mint. He could be in for confiscation or a lawsuit.

dcarr

<< <i>Yowza Dan! Those feed fingers and the collar are exceptional. >>





<< <i>Dcarr, WOW Just Awesome!!!! >>



Thanks. Here is the complete story of how these got out via the GSA:
Moonlight Mint's surplus Denver Mint Grabeber coin press

ctf_error_coins

<< <i>[According the law the fact that you have receipts means nothing. >>



I am not a Lawyer, but here's my explanation, I do have receipts and from hundreds of individuals.

If one of those individuals was found to have stolen the coin from the mint, then I agree with you.

But the burden is on the mint to prove theft in the first place.

As I said earlier, the current scandal is all about MEL's and I have never dealt with them.

I have no worries whatsoever about my coins.

Aegis3

I never had any doubts after the court case documents that errors were legal to own, so long as issued through normal channels; it takes a whole lot of reading into the documents what you want to (and frankly, a good deal of paranoia also) to reach the opposite conclusion. The linked article only confirms that they remain legal to own, which, frankly, makes the story about something else entirely. But that is something off-topic for these forums.

goodmoney4badmoney

The only error coins I would actually "worry" about are proofs, and I'm referring mainly to major proof errors such as off center/double struck or off metal strikes. Supposedly the government position on proof errors is that they must fit in the original government packaging to be legal to own. I have seen many proof errors that the diameter is larger than the packaging would allow (double struck or off center) that were offered quite publicly, through Heritage or eBay for example. My level of concern about owning proof errors is about 0%, and I own a handful of them, all are able to fit in the government packaging but I would still buy one that couldn't fit.
By the way, I also own several MEL dollars, and my level of concern with them is also about 0%.

TwoSides2aCoin

If ___________(s) didn't steal from their employers , the mint wouldn't be clarifying legal ownership. Instead, an internal memo and tighter standards (clarifying ownership), by holding employees accountable for every hour they're at work, should be the order of business. That's a lot easire policy to enforce than to put a memo out nationally, through numismatic channels; just to establish "governance" over the hobby. That's okay, too. We might need to lock up a few of those government employees found to be pilfering the wealth of the people, who've done more damage to it than the Chinese counterfeiters. Plus, the more the market is flooded with modern crap like the MELs, the less people care about collecting it. It stinks. (who can see why ? )

Greed creates deviant behavior, it appears. I guess that makes lots of "cents" to a few (deviants), but none to the rest of us who're content just looking through a loupe at coins.

Now let's define "proper" sale of a numistmatic item. (please don't mention eBay, it's not proper selling there) ... it's proper buying

ProofArtworkonCircs

<<There are only two ways for nonexpendable property belonging to the Mint lawfully to be removed from the Mint facility or come into the hands of a private owner: (1) proper sale of the property as a numismatic item; or (2) proper disposal of the property through the General Services Administration (GSA), commonly through public auction” ...>>

Oh my gosh - only 2 ways they are legal - and they all involve sales as a numismatic item or from the GSA.

How about coins released into circulation by normal methods with no premium? What if I find an error coin in circulation and I don't have a receipt showing I paid a premium for it?

garrynot

The motivation for the Mint statement is the "MEL" dollars, but what about the state quarters? There are a bunch of them missing the cladding, for example. It would be interesting for Fred to comment.

ctf_error_coins

<< <i>The motivation for the Mint statement is the "MEL" dollars, but what about the state quarters? There are a bunch of them missing the cladding, for example. It would be interesting for Fred to comment. >>



Missing clad layer errors, even tho they are rare, do happen quite often and is easily explained. They are considered true mint errors and can be found in bags and rolls.

FredWeinberg

My only comment is that
there is nothing but pure
speculation on this subject.

I'm not concerned.

garrynot

Thanks Fred, CTF... for your thoughts