A delicate question, and not sure how to ask it...regarding Large Cent prices...

jmski52

I don't go to enough shows or spend enough time on them to consider myself an expert in Large Cents. I do have a collecting strategy, and that is basically to get the nicest example I can find and afford when I go on a search. I do focus on eye appeal, strike and surfaces but I don't really try for scarce varieties since they bring a premium anyway.

Here's my question - I recently subscribed to Coin Facts, and in looking through the auction results and in comparing some of those coins to some of mine, I'm beginning to think that sometimes I've overpaid. Sometimes, it seems like I did very well, also. I also wonder if one of the coins I traded away might have been something special, after looking at some of the Coin Facts pics.

Are Large Cents all over the map in price, and are they difficult to assess for value? The more I research, the less equipped I feel. Is this par for the course?

TheRegulator

The 1827?

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>Are Large Cents all over the map in price, and are they difficult to assess for value? >>



Color and surface quality trumps numerical grade, so a really nice, original, smooth, golden brown VF can sell for more than a dark AU with some surface roughness, which can make comparing auction prices of different grades seem "all over the map".

Not to mention that the occasional rare die variety may skew things too.

PocketEasyTreasures

I must agree, a problem free coin will bring a premium and eye appeal has much to do with that as well. Price guides don't give you the value on eye appeal and that's why you see an up and down values for Large Cents. The better they look the more premium, even if the coins appear to be the same grade.

jmski52

The 1827?

Are you confirming my worst fears? And do you have it now?

BillJones

You need to be more specific about what which era of large cents are the basis of your question. Early (1793 – 1814) large cents can vary in price greatly for the same technical grade because of how well they were struck, quality of the planchet on which they were struck, Sheldon variety, Sheldon variety die state, color, originality of the surfaces and general overall eye appeal. For some coins the eye appeal factor can be influenced by the date and variety. Some dates are often ugly and better looking ones bring a premium.

Another factor is EAC grading. If you are looking at an auction result or sale where EAC grading applied, you can bet that most collectors would describe the coins as “under graded” by it least one grade. Therefore if you see a high price for “Fine” in an EAC graded transaction, you can be pretty sure that the coin would be a VF anywhere else.

For the later dates things get more generic. I don’t anything about Newcomb numbers because that area of numismatics has never interested me. For an R-1 to R-3 variety, grading from the middle and late dates does get more uniform and in-line with the grading number assigned. With those coins the prices realized results should be more uniform.

The short answer for the early dates is that you have to see and compare the coins with others before you can say the price was "high" or "low."

Edited to add,

Here is an example of how EAC grading works. This 1794 large cent is in a PCGS MS-62, Brown holder. Bill Noyes, who is the world's most conservative EAC grader, net graded this to EF-45 from AU-50. In the Dan Holms catalog, it was called AU-50. My grade would be MS-60. A friend who is a senior grader at PCI graded it MS-62.

One thing I will guarantee you is that you will never buy this coin for the prices listed for EF-45 or AU-50 from a seller who is rational.

TheRegulator

The 1827 currently resides in a PCGS PR63BN holder in my SDB. Just kidding...

You've already got some great responses, but I'll just add that buying from a specialist dealer will result in paying a decent premium. They know what they are doing so you probably won't be getting any bargains. You will, however, be getting a sense of assuredness along with any purchase and a better shot at finding what you want.

You do have a great eye for early copper, so perhaps buying from auctions is something to consider.

BillJones

Perhaps you could post of picture of the 1827 and explain what concerns you about it. It's not a Randal Hoard date so it's not that easy to find in a grades like Mint State. Therefore the prices for higher grade examples can be on the strong side.

jmski52

When I sold this coin a couple years ago (back to the same dealer that I bought it from in 1993), I was under the impression that it was not a Proof and that it had been polished at some point. (Note, I didn't think so, but I was told by several dealers that it had been.) Since those dealers were all pretty much Large Cent or early US coinage specialists, I had to concede that they knew what they were talking about.

About a year later, I was looking through a couple of my auction catalogs and wham! There it was, on the *cover* of The Robinson S. Brown, Jr. Auction of Sept. 30, October 1, 1986. Same date. Same blue-steel toning. Same detail. Sold for $8,250 in 1993.

On closer comparison and after reading through the auction description, I began to see some slight differences, but the look and the detail on both are very close. Even the stars on mine were sharper. The catalog coin might have been a bit bluer in tone and mine a bit more golden purplish brown.

When I looked at some of the Coin Facts auction pictures of 1827 coins, none of them seemed to have as sharp of detail as my coin did. That is why I posted my question. I'm still not sure of what I had. It's about 2 years too late, but I'm still learning how to approach these types of acquisitions. Please comment if you can add any other technical tips.

I'm still wondering.

---

Catalog Pic (scratch is on the catalog cover, not the coin) vs. my coin:

WaterSport

Remember, its just a "Guide"

WS

BigMoose

Jerry, looking at the Large Cents you have posted on the Boards over the last several months, I would say you are doing just fine--every one of the Middle Dates you posted looks wonderful, and you should do quite well on these long term. Nobody knows for sure how to price these little treasures. Usually, when I am buying, I look very closely at the coin, and if I really like the coin and the price is within very wide parameters of "within reason", then I buy it! About the best you can do is utilize CQR and auction records, but even then--take a look at the Goldberg's website under archives and look at some of the fantastic prices Ted Naftzger's Middle and Late Date large Cents sold for( and the Dan Holmes Early Dates ). I was not able to buy everything I wanted from the Naftzger Middle and Late Date Sales, and am constantly on the lookout for these to resurface---very, very few of the high end coins that brought fantastically high prices have come back on the market.

With regard to the 1827--it sure does look like a Proof to me!

Bill Jones---very nice Sheldon-21.

Walkerguy21D

Very difficult series to price, regardless of your resources. Many of the coins need to be evaluated individually on their merits,
and no single guide can cover this.
Greysheet is a joke, but if you ever come across decent early coins the dealer is pricing via the sheet, buy them with both hands.
The CQR guide is somewhat useful, and a lot of EAC guys use it, but again you have to know what 'average' and 'scudzy' mean, etc, and that there are many shades of gray.
Auction records are also useful, but tend to be high, IMO, especially when the big name-brand collections are auctioned. Seems like even average pieces get run up by auction fever, or people wanting a piece of the provenance, etc.

Shamika

The coin above does indeed look like a proof although I'm not an expert in this series. The strike is amazing. It's not often you see the details in the obverse stars that you see in this coin. Does anyone know if the die gouge between the words "STATES OF" on the reverse is a diagnostic?

Walkerguy21D

Amazing detail for sure. It is a different Newcomb variety than the Robbie Brown Proof coin you also posted.
Not that they couldn't have struck proofs from different dies at different times that year, anything is possible,
but these two were not struck at the same time.

Shamika

jmski52 - Did you ever get closure on this piece?

jmski52

jmski52 - Did you ever get closure on this piece?

Well, I kinda got some closure but not completely. There were two reasons that I sold the coin. One reason was that several professionals told me that they thought it had been cleaned/polished at one point. I'm still not sure that I agree with them.

The other reason was the light brown spot (barely visible) in front of Liberty's face. I don't remember it from when I bought the coin in 1993, but it appeared sometime during the last decade, I think. That wasn't so bad, but a second light brown spot had appeared before I decided to sell the coin. Thinking that perhaps the coin had been treated sometime in the past - I decided to try & go totally original with my collection and I sold it as part of another purchase.

Then, I started wondering whether I'd made a mistake.

I have seen the coin since, and I decided to let it go. I still don't know if I made the right decision.

DennisH

That coin said "I'm a proof!" to me the first instant I saw it.

Flatwoods

<< <i>That coin said "I'm a proof!" to me the first instant I saw it. >>



Me too.

sniocsu

This looks to be an N5 (R2, many MS examples exist) to me. I have not looked at it in detail, so it is possible that it is another variety. As far as it being a proof, I have no idea. Copper is one of the most reactive metals in numismatics; I have personally handled/owned low grade examples with the type of toning seen here. Either way, cleaned or original; it is a beautiful high grade coin I would not mind owning.
Hope this helps a little,
-TEJ

joecopper

to OP - I too use a combination of CQR and auction records. My coins are not really high grade but in the mid-range. I recently got CVM catalog and found fifty coins that I could reasonably compare. My coins using EAC guidelines for grade and CQR had 10% priced above CVM and 10% below. Also I agree that the big copper auctions are generally overpriced due to pedigree, the moment, etc. That being said, recently I have found coins selling 1.0 to 1.2 times CQR on the average. Thus I believe that CQR with EAC grading can be used to get a reasonable value, at least now and in the recent past.

Another example: Phil Clover collection was 1.1 times on the average, 41% below CQR, 59% greater after I adjusted grades to my grading eye.