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Coin Ethics Questions
Coins911
Posts: 538
What would you do:
You sell a coin to a dealer which is a walking liberty half and its in a PCGS Genuine holder due to cleaning. The next show you see it cracked out raw and it has been dipped to remove toning in a 2x2 holder marked "Gem Brilliant"
You overhear him selling them coin to a newbie collector as "100% original in straight from the mint condition"
Do you say anything?
You sell a coin to a dealer which is a walking liberty half and its in a PCGS Genuine holder due to cleaning. The next show you see it cracked out raw and it has been dipped to remove toning in a 2x2 holder marked "Gem Brilliant"
You overhear him selling them coin to a newbie collector as "100% original in straight from the mint condition"
Do you say anything?
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Comments
<< <i>If i'd sold a slabbed toned coin to a dealer and saw a raw "BU" being sold i'd have to ask myself how sure i was it's the same coin.Something as commen as a US WL 50c i couldn't be sure of myself so i'd leave it at that. >>
Let me add one more thing to make it clear it was the same coin the dealer admited to it being the coin I sold to him. When i asked about the toning he said it needed a bath. No question its the same coin.
You might say why not get into a public tussle with the dealer AND tell everyone. In that case, it becomes a he said-she said situation, and no one knows who the jerk really is.
<< <i>I would not say anything to break up the possible transaction. It is considered to be poor form and could get you ejected and banned from the show. I would pull the collector aside and tell him the real story behind the coin and tell as many people as I can the story (including on public forums) and recommend to others to avoid the dealer. In that way, you can have a greater effect on hurting the dealer's business and his shady business practices.
You might say why not get into a public tussle with the dealer AND tell everyone. In that case, it becomes a he said-she said situation, and no one knows who the jerk really is. >>
Great response and I totally agree.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>What would you do:
You sell a coin to a dealer which is a walking liberty half and its in a PCGS Genuine holder due to cleaning. The next show you see it cracked out raw and it has been dipped to remove toning in a 2x2 holder marked "Gem Brilliant"
You overhear him selling them coin to a newbie collector as "100% original in straight from the mint condition"
Do you say anything? >>
Do you think it was cleaned? I have had multiple opinions on the same coin from PCGS and NGC.
-Keith
What if the guy simply disagreed with the "cleaned" designation and thought they got it wrong?
Thus he broke it out and dipped it, revealing a nice coin....nice enough that he dug into his repertoire of puffery when describing it.
I've seen toned coins that looked ugly as a toad that were eye-poppers after a quick bath. I'm just saying.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Ok...in the interest of playing devil's advocate... knowing that I haven't seen the coin in question...
What if the guy simply disagreed with the "cleaned" designation and thought they got it wrong?
Thus he broke it out and dipped it, revealing a nice coin....nice enough that he dug into his repertoire of puffery when describing it.
I've seen toned coins that looked ugly as a toad that were eye-poppers after a quick bath. I'm just saying. >>
I would agree with you up until: You overhear him selling them coin to a newbie collector as "100% original in straight from the mint condition"
Better to say nothing and let the buyer decide than to lie. Better yet is to tell the truth, if asked. The best is to give full disclosure without being asked.
It's not my business.
<< <i>Better to say nothing and let the buyer decide than to lie. Better yet is to tell the truth, if asked. The best is to give full disclosure without being asked. >>
I agree with that statement wholeheartedly... and let me be clear that I don't condone that "100%-original" comment... that crosses a line from puffery into misrepesentation imo.
This is much like a non-ebay version of the sellers who buy problem coins and then sell them as if problem free...(assuming this particular coin actually had a problem, that is).
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Ok...in the interest of playing devil's advocate... knowing that I haven't seen the coin in question...
What if the guy simply disagreed with the "cleaned" designation and thought they got it wrong?
Thus he broke it out and dipped it, revealing a nice coin....nice enough that he dug into his repertoire of puffery when describing it.
I've seen toned coins that looked ugly as a toad that were eye-poppers after a quick bath. I'm just saying. >>
That's the beauty of the coin hobby/business; there is always a legitimate escape clause even for the scum/DBs. Outing the coin doctors is a wonderful thing as long as someone else does it.
Many here have stated in the past about how one should be upfront about what they know of the past history of a coin, yet no-one seems to be calling out this dealer for not doing the same.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Ethical from the ones who skirt ethics.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>What would you do:
You sell a coin to a dealer which is a walking liberty half and its in a PCGS Genuine holder due to cleaning. The next show you see it cracked out raw and it has been dipped to remove toning in a 2x2 holder marked "Gem Brilliant"
You overhear him selling them coin to a newbie collector as "100% original in straight from the mint condition"
Do you say anything? >>
Even if I could be absolutely, positively, 110% sure it was the same coin, I wouldn't interfere with the sale.
I would probably not do business with that dealer again, at least for raw coins.
I would also tell members of my coin club and anybody who asked me, just what I thought of the dealer's ethics.
1. TPG thought it was cleaned
2. Dealer thought it was a gem BU after a bath
3. Collector thought it was good enough to spend XXX on to acquire
The only opinion i didn't hear is your own. Did you think the coin was cleaned? Did the hairlines disappear or become less visible after the dip?
8 Reales Madness Collection
Should you mind your own business since you no longer own the coin? Yes.
This one got a "Genuine" the first time throught the mill for "cleaning":
After showing it to several reputable dealers who felt that it had not been cleanied, I resubmitted it.
If the coin you sold had obvious scratches or altered surfaces then it might be something you might "mention" to the dealer. Cleaning is not one of those though since it's simply an opinion which may or may not be re-validated by a TPG.
The name is LEE!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
8 Reales Madness Collection
It's not like paper money with serial #'s
I have a coin that was in a PCGS genuine holder now MS in PCGS holder.
what is wrong with sell it as a mint state coin.?
You already sold it to someone else.
What the dealers does with it, is his business.
I'd be careful about doing business with that
dealer !!!
<< <i>The real problem is you CAN NOT say its the same coin for certain!
It's not like paper money with serial #'s
I have a coin that was in a PCGS genuine holder now MS in PCGS holder.
what is wrong with sell it as a mint state coin.? >>
It was stated that it IS the same coin so that point is not debatable.
There is nothing to stop you from saying/selling the coin as mint state because that is what the holder says. Do you feel that you should volunteer to a prospective purchaser that it was previously in a gennie holder? What if they were right the first time and wrong the second.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>What would you do:
You sell a coin to a dealer which is a walking liberty half and its in a PCGS Genuine holder due to cleaning. The next show you see it cracked out raw and it has been dipped to remove toning in a 2x2 holder marked "Gem Brilliant"
You overhear him selling them coin to a newbie collector as "100% original in straight from the mint condition"
Do you say anything? >>
The only ethical is to be that [allegedly] the dealer is lying when he states that the coin "original" when he knows that it has been dipped (and thus no longer "original"). In other words, do you step in and alert one party when you are certain another party is lying to them? From an ethical perspective, it is irrelevant which party the dealer and which party is the collector.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>That's the beauty of the coin hobby/business; there is always a legitimate escape clause even for the scum/DBs. Outing the coin doctors is a wonderful thing as long as someone else does it.
Many here have stated in the past about how one should be upfront about what they know of the past history of a coin, yet no-one seems to be calling out this dealer for not doing the same. >>
You evidently missed where I clearly stated that I didn't condone what the dealer said.
The crux of the argument here is not that he dipped the coin; it was his to do with what he pleased once he purchased it-(and I might stop here to add no one seems to want to acknowledge the possibility that perhaps he saw a nice coin beneath the toning that others didn't.)
What he did that was wrong was LIE to the potential buyer about the whole "100% original" thing.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I would not say anything to break up the possible transaction. It is considered to be poor form and could get you ejected and banned from the show. I would pull the collector aside and tell him the real story behind the coin and tell as many people as I can the story (including on public forums) and recommend to others to avoid the dealer. In that way, you can have a greater effect on hurting the dealer's business and his shady business practices.
You might say why not get into a public tussle with the dealer AND tell everyone. In that case, it becomes a he said-she said situation, and no one knows who the jerk really is. >>
I pretty much agree with this, although you still run the risk of a law suit from the dealer if he decided to file one. The trouble is in our suit happy society just the threat of legal action can silence people. Just look at what happened during the case brought by that third world grading company a few years ago.
Don't think that I'm defending this, but the dealer might be 100% wrong. I've seen coins that got into body bags for what ever reason that were "fixed" or had nothing done to them get graded and made market acceptable later. One thing about this business and hobby, some things are not 100% when it comes to an educated opinion.
<< <i>
<< <i>That's the beauty of the coin hobby/business; there is always a legitimate escape clause even for the scum/DBs. Outing the coin doctors is a wonderful thing as long as someone else does it.
Many here have stated in the past about how one should be upfront about what they know of the past history of a coin, yet no-one seems to be calling out this dealer for not doing the same. >>
You evidently missed where I clearly stated that I didn't condone what the dealer said.
The crux of the argument here is not that he dipped the coin; it was his to do with what he pleased once he purchased it-(and I might stop here to add no one seems to want to acknowledge the possibility that perhaps he saw a nice coin beneath the toning that others didn't.)
What he did that was wrong was LIE to the potential buyer about the whole "100% original" thing. >>
Yes, there was one mention of it, but in general nobody seemed to be on his case about it.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>That's the beauty of the coin hobby/business; there is always a legitimate escape clause even for the scum/DBs. Outing the coin doctors is a wonderful thing as long as someone else does it.
Many here have stated in the past about how one should be upfront about what they know of the past history of a coin, yet no-one seems to be calling out this dealer for not doing the same. >>
You evidently missed where I clearly stated that I didn't condone what the dealer said.
The crux of the argument here is not that he dipped the coin; it was his to do with what he pleased once he purchased it-(and I might stop here to add no one seems to want to acknowledge the possibility that perhaps he saw a nice coin beneath the toning that others didn't.)
What he did that was wrong was LIE to the potential buyer about the whole "100% original" thing. >>
Yes, there was one mention of it, but in general nobody seemed to be on his case about it. >>
If you think about it... assuming the "cleaned" call was blown originally and the coin dipped out to a nice problem free grade... the buyer isn't getting hurt here as long as the price is appropriate for the quality. The lie still is a lie of course, and unethical from that standpoint- but as long as the buyer got value received then there is no real injury here IMO... (except conceivably to the dealer's reputation, as OP spits poison about him to everyone he knows.)
That said, I can't help but ask the question... could there be an element of sour grapes here? OP could have dipped the coin himself and/or resubmitted it.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>Who cares if you are tossed out of the show, if its the right thing to do--------------BigE >>
Should I cause a fuss when I see someone buying a pack of cigarettes at the store? Smoking is far more deleterious than dipped Walkers.