Updated 9/29 what to do, seller is backing out of sale

captainthreeputt

Hi Guys,

A 1923 V145-1 Howie Morenz was put up late night with an $800 BIN OBO. My original intention was to make an offer, but then I thought since it is late, if I do not hit the buy it now, it may be gone in the morning. It is a very rare card. This one is out of Canada and hard to really tell the condition in it's raw state. As most of you know, I am fairly high up on the registry of Top 250 Sportscards in the Hobby, and I need this card. In four years of collecting, there have been a little over a handful of these for sale. Usually, raw or KSA. Since I need to send it to PSA, this can be tricky.

Anyhow, I hit the BIN, and today the seller sent me an email that he is selling for a friend or client and he should have started at $1800 OBO. He says he is willing to sell it to me for $1400. Unfortunately, it has a fair crease in the upper corner, chocolate stains along the bottom, and possibly a small paper loss on the front. If it would get a PSA 3mk, I would be ok with the new price, but if it comes back PSA 1mk, I am not sure I would want it for that amount.

I was thinking of offering him the original money, and escalate to his price depending on the grade from PSA. I doubt he will go for that. Sorry for the long winded story.

I would love to get some advice on this transaction

Brian

bobbyw8469

tough call....I can see it from both points of view. Me personally, I would pass. Is it so rare that another one won't come up within a year?

handyman

You must have scared him when you bought it so fast that he might be able to make another 20.00 or so.
Neg

CollectorAtWork

I would say that this is an honest mistake by the seller. However, he did goof. If you don't think the card is worth $1400, then you can decline his offer, and neg him for backing out of the transaction. Obviously ebay purchases are an agreement, and if he backs out, you have every right to neg him. However, if it is a very rare card, and you think $1400 is still a fair price for the condition, etc, you might still go for it (and then obviously not neg him).

brendanb438

Well the bottom line is you tell him you will neg him and leave 1 stars if he doesn't follow through. Not much else that you can do. I wouldn't pay more than what he had it listed at out of principle.

WinPitcher

Hi

I have no idea regarding the market for this card.

However, was 800.00 about right or a steal?

If it was a steal then perhaps the person did make a mistake.

If it was about right, then they guy is having sellers remorse.

You can't force him to sell it. I doubt he will go for that escalation process.

Good luck!


Steve

twiley

Seller should honor original price...

Frozencaribou

I've found myself in similar situations, and I've always just walked away from the deal and tried not to be upset with the seller. Negotiating post sale for a higher price is an unreasonable request and I've never allowed a seller to do this to me.

First and foremost, it is a huge red flag. If they don't know the price, then they don't know the condition and often won't understand how to pack and ship the item responsibly. They will be unreliable and possibly will just try to take your $$. They won't be happy with you unless you comply, either.

Secondly, it's cardboard. There will be another card down the road that will come up that you can buy from a reputable seller. Don't sweat it.

-Nathanael

WinPitcher

Brian

I don't think a card with paper loss can get a 3.

I think you are looking at a 2, why do you think it would get a mk qualifier?

bobbyw8469

Maybe he was counting the chocolate stain at the bottom as MK. It will probably get a PSA 2 (ST),

Yankees001

Don't budge. If he sends a request to cancel the transaction, refuse it. Let him eat the Ebay End BIN Fee of 12%.

If he refuses to sell, leave a NEG. and 1 star rating.

Dave

captainthreeputt

I think I am going to see if he will let me send it to PSA. If it comes back a PSA 1 ask him to honor the price. If it comes back a PSA 2 offer him $1000-1100. If it comes back a PSA 3 then I will give him the $1400 he is asking now. It will definitely get a ST or MK qualifier for the chocolate stains on the bottom. It is a hard card to put a price on. There was a PSA 4 no qualifier on ebay months ago for $2950. I offered the seller $2500, and he was going to accept it, but someone paid the $2950 before he changed the price for me. Most of them are KSA, which is hard to determine a PSA grade or price.

Do you think my possible solution is a fair one?

Brian

hhmag70

<< <i>
Do you think my possible solution is a fair one?

Brian >>



Very fair offer.

bobbyw8469

He would be hard pressed to do that. It sounds good in theory, but honoring that type of agreement would be hard to do. What if the card comes back EOT or something like that??

jimrad

I don't think the seller will consider the "gamble" he just wants $$$

Seems unfair, but it's EBay

twiley

I would walk away... Seller is being unreasonable imo. Seller should honor the $800 price. Whats the seller going to pull next? Add on another 200 if you pay the 1400? or better yet send you an empty envelope with DC on it???? If the seller doesn't honor the $800 then walk away, neg and 1s for all the seller's DSR.

EagleEyeKid

The auction

I would love to own a Morenz rookie but not this one and yes they are hard to come by.
I wouldn't budge on the price. The $800 is very fair IMO if it grades a straight 2. Not going to happen.
You're going to get a MK or ST qualifier. His $1,800 is for a PSA 4 price. I'd neg and would tell him to stick it.
Neg!

CollectorAtWork

I think this is a tougher issue than people think. I looked at the pop reports, and there are 27 on the PSA report and 12 on the SGC report. Just going by this, I would say, just wait for another card since there are "plenty" in the pop reports and another should come around again relatively soon. However, when I checked the auction histories of some of the major houses (like REA, Goodwin, Huggins and Scott, Legendary, and Heritage), there were barely any cards listed. Most of the these never sold this card in their history. The last one Legendary sold was a PSA 6 in 2002. Heritage did sell one in their April 2011 auction. An SGC 5 went for nearly $9000 (including BP). I looked at the card on ebay (Link), and it didn't look that bad. Except for staining and the crease, it had fairly good eye appeal. With the crease, I would probably say, it might hit PSA 3. I don't know how much PSA would downgrade for the staining, but PSA 2 is as good a guess as any. My guess is $800 is probably a steal, but then again, I've never followed this card before, so have no idea.

JoeBanzai

Your solution makes sense, but he will probably decline it. No such thing as an "honest" mistake here. You can't force him to sell.

If seller refuses to negotiate to such a fair minded counter offer, do not buy. It might take a while, but another will come along.

Joe

smtjoy

Dont budge on the $800 price, if he tries to cancel then neg and all 1's. This was not a mistake, plus I dont see the card grading any better than a PSA 2 (ST/MK).

hammered

To suggest that it was a $1000 mistake is ludicrous. I cannot imagine any competent seller, holding a very rare card and realizing its value, making a mistake like this.
In my view, your quick hit on the BIN told him that maybe he could've gotten more for it and he had seller's remorse.

That said, he is the seller, and he can do whatever he wants.
If you think 1400 is fair, take it. If not, counter with 1200 or whatever. Explain to him the stain and how a qualifier drops the value two grades' equivalent.

If he holds firm on 1400, and you have misgivings about the stain, maybe you should pass.

storm888

It is "possible" that the pricing was a mistake; prolly not, but "possible."

If I wanted the card, I would counter the seller's offer with a price I thought
was reasonable. (I would not tier the offer based on a speculative PSA grade.)

EBAY is always VERY happy when a jilted buyer refuses to cancel a busted
transaction. The ONLY thing I like to do to make EBAY happy is to use their
venue.

WinPitcher

To suggest the seller is competent is also ludicrous, his actions in this very auction suggest otherwise.

onebamafan

Homeboy has over 1800+ feedback, he knows the drill...............mistake unlikely.

WinPitcher

Anyone actually take the time and look through his feedback?

JohnnyD

<< <i>Homeboy has over 1800+ feedback, he knows the drill...............mistake unlikely. >>



+1

swartz1

you cant force him to sell you the card for the BIN price...

decline his request to cancel...

leave the neg and move on...

jimrad

<< <i>Anyone actually take the time and look through his feedback? >>



Outside of an occasional modern auto card he mainly sells $10-$30 items - no vintage

wallst32

I'm not familiar with the card, but considering the OP is already strongly considering the counteroffer that's 75% over the original price, that tells me he knows he got a steal. There are a lot of spiteful people here suggesting negatives and poor feedback.

eyebone

<< <i>Don't budge. If he sends a request to cancel the transaction, refuse it. Let him eat the Ebay End BIN Fee of 12%.

If he refuses to sell, leave a NEG. and 1 star rating.

Dave >>




I agree with this.

captainthreeputt

Wallst32. To answer your question on the difference in price. I would not consider the purchase at $1800. Raw cards with stains are far too risky without it being graded. Yes, at $800, I am safe. That is why I made the offer to escalate the price if it grades better than expected. It obviously has chocolate on it, but as another person stated, it may not get a qualifier. I certainly would not want to pay full price and then have it come back a much lower grade, especially on such a pricey card. I think my offer is fair and the seller and I are working out the parameters.

Also, just to clarify, I never claimed I would neg him, but I do understand why some might want to. That is why I brought it to the board, I am more than willing to pay a fair price, and that is why I mostly purchase graded cards. It is definitely safer, but this card mostly comes up raw or KSA. Those that do not collect high end hockey, do not understand that it is difficult to purchase KSA cards. Canadiens are willing to pay almost PSA prices for these cards, but I need to crossover to PSA and they always get hit one or two grades lower. For that reason, that is why I jumped on this card.

I thank everyone for their input, and I will update if I am able to finalize the deal, and then I will update on the PSA grade.

Thanks all,

Brian

JMDVM

How long was the card listed as a BIN? If it was up there for a couple of days then the seller had ample time to correct it. I'd hold him to the $800.

CollectorAtWork

<< <i>How long was the card listed as a BIN? If it was up there for a couple of days then the seller had ample time to correct it. I'd hold him to the $800. >>



The card was listed at Sep-12 18:26 and ended on Sep-12 22:32, so it was there roughly 4 hours.

otwcards

Examining the scans, I'm not catching the potential paper loss aside from a possible spot on the reverse. I can easily see this card in a PSA 3 (ST) or possibly a straight PSA 2 assuming that it is authentic and original.

With regard to listing error and price negotiation, it is all conjecture. There's no telling whether there was an error or remorse. Regardless, the point is now whether the OP is willing to meet the seller's requests. If the seller is willing to work with the OP and the OP is willing to work with the seller, then they should be able to negotiate without the conspiracy theorists suggesting slamming the seller or issuing ultimatums.

captainthreeputt

Update to the dilemma.

The seller and I worked out my proposal. We both know we have to put some trust in each other. I received the card today, and providing it is real and unaltered (hard to be sure since you do not see these every day), I think this transaction will work out well. I do believe it will come back a PSA 3 with more than likely a qualifier. It does not have the possible paper loss which was a big concern of mine.

I will ship it out to PSA on friday, and I will let you know the results.

Brian

EagleEyeKid

Good luck Brian.
I'm very curious to see the final result/grade.

gumbyfan

I can't help but wonder if the people on the neg train here would be abhorred if it was the seller here lamenting the wrong opening bid, trying to be reasonable with the buyer who hit the BIN and then getting a neg and 1 stars out of it.

Put away your pitchforks and torches...people make mistakes. I'd hate to see how some of you would handle real problems in life.

It looks like the OP took the high road on this and I wish you the best of luck. Hope everything works out for all parties in the end.

WinPitcher

I'd love to see how they would handle it, had they made the mistake.

bobbyw8469

Please keep us informed as to the grade. Obivously, due to the value, this was submitted as an EXPRESS service?

captainthreeputt

Update to this transaction. The seller made me give him an extra $400 up front, and then we would work my proposal. I really thought since he made the mistake, I should not have to give him the extra money up front, but I did.

The results are, the card has been graded a PSA 2.5 with no qualifiers. I am definitely happy with the final transaction, and I do believe both the buyer and seller are happy with the outcome of this transaction.

Thanks for all the input,

Brian

jimrad

Brian congrats on taking the road less traveled and making a good deal.

uyu906

Glad to hear this all worked out for you Brian!



<< <i>Update to this transaction. The seller made me give him an extra $400 up front, and then we would work my proposal. I really thought since he made the mistake, I should not have to give him the extra money up front, but I did.

The results are, the card has been graded a PSA 2.5 with no qualifiers. I am definitely happy with the final transaction, and I do believe both the buyer and seller are happy with the outcome of this transaction.

Thanks for all the input,

Brian >>

jimrad

Brian set me the scan of his graded Morenz - here it is - great job Brian !!!

Dboneesq

Congrats Brian ... you handled the situation much better than most. You are a stand up guy. Enjoy the card.

jeff8877

Brian,

That's what I call going the "extra mile" for card collecting and your set. Congrats on the great pickup and glad it worked out well for both.

Jeff

brendanb438

My question for the OP is this, did you still Neg the seller and leave him all 1 stars? Because if you didn't you are just letting this seller continue to pull crap like this.

captainthreeputt

I did not neg him. He has some 1400 perfect feedback. If he was doing this frequently I believe someone would have given him a neg. Every correspondence with him was professional and polite. He overnighted the card from Canada once we worked it out, and that was probably fairly pricey.

I was not happy that this happened, but I think in the end, I still got a great deal. I do not think he set out to do this with this card. If this were an auction and he played this game there would be no excuse. Once again, I think it is possible he may have made more money relisting it, it is always hard to be sure of the value of these old cards in this condition. If he would have asked for more money in the BIN, I am not sure I would have purchased it.

I will not give him positive feedback, but I also will not neg him. Lastly, if you look at his sales, he does not play in the pond of high end cards. He said he will be posting some older ones soon?

It is amazing how different the views are on this board between buyers and sellers. I think this one worked out for both sides. If others were involved, maybe it would not have ended so satisfactorily.

Brian

samspop

Brian:

Sounds like your patience with the seller paid off very well for you!

Congrats on a VERY nice card!!

pmcollectour

Brian,

Great card. Nice pick up !!!

No need to listen to my, or anyone else's way of handling this. It's your money, and you handled it the way you wanted to.
I think you did great.