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The "holy" greysheet
Dennis88
Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭
I've wanted to write this post for quite awhile now but after the last Long Beach show I'm done with the greysheet. In not a single other collectible segment is a "wholesale" price list so ridiculous in its pricing and as a result it has become virtually useless for dealers to use. Unfortunately, many collectors expect otherwise, something that obviously doesn't work. Here are a few facts.
Fact 1:
-The greysheet originally was a WHOLESALE price list. That is, for dealer to dealer transactions.
Fact 2:
-The greysheet is the only wholesale price list available to the general public, in any collectibles market.
Fact 3:
-The publisher of the greysheet no longer employs anybody full-time for its pricing.
Fact 4:
-Auction results, in any segment of the market auction results are totally different from the greysheet pricing. Circulated Barbers, better Seated material, high-end Walkers. You name it and the greysheet is totally out of whack.
All of this has resulted in an attitude of the general public to use the greysheet as their only price guide, and to criticize dealer prices on all kinds of material. Even when the facts, auction results that is, are presented to them they point to the greysheet and say "But it's only $500 here. Why price coin .... at $1200?" (auction results for the same coin show prices between $1100 and $1400). Even for dealer to dealer transactions, the initial goal of the greysheet, it has become useless. Commemoratives are now priced at percentages of the greysheet, and traded at (various) big discounts. Same for run of the mill Morgan Dollars. Otherwise, dealers are unable to buy many coins at the "Ask" price in the greysheet. Then why do people expect us to sell coins to them at Bid prices? That never was the goal of the greysheet.
People need to realize that our market currently lacks a dealer to dealer price guide except for the most common coins. The greysheet has become somewhat of an outdated retail price guide, and thus is virtually worthless. It's the same as looking at the newspaper of last month and take those stock prices when you go trading. It doesn't work.
Any comments?
Dennis
Fact 1:
-The greysheet originally was a WHOLESALE price list. That is, for dealer to dealer transactions.
Fact 2:
-The greysheet is the only wholesale price list available to the general public, in any collectibles market.
Fact 3:
-The publisher of the greysheet no longer employs anybody full-time for its pricing.
Fact 4:
-Auction results, in any segment of the market auction results are totally different from the greysheet pricing. Circulated Barbers, better Seated material, high-end Walkers. You name it and the greysheet is totally out of whack.
All of this has resulted in an attitude of the general public to use the greysheet as their only price guide, and to criticize dealer prices on all kinds of material. Even when the facts, auction results that is, are presented to them they point to the greysheet and say "But it's only $500 here. Why price coin .... at $1200?" (auction results for the same coin show prices between $1100 and $1400). Even for dealer to dealer transactions, the initial goal of the greysheet, it has become useless. Commemoratives are now priced at percentages of the greysheet, and traded at (various) big discounts. Same for run of the mill Morgan Dollars. Otherwise, dealers are unable to buy many coins at the "Ask" price in the greysheet. Then why do people expect us to sell coins to them at Bid prices? That never was the goal of the greysheet.
People need to realize that our market currently lacks a dealer to dealer price guide except for the most common coins. The greysheet has become somewhat of an outdated retail price guide, and thus is virtually worthless. It's the same as looking at the newspaper of last month and take those stock prices when you go trading. It doesn't work.
Any comments?
Dennis
0
Comments
The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…
<< <i>I've wanted to write this post for quite awhile now but after the last Long Beach show I'm done with the greysheet. In not a single other collectible segment is a "wholesale" price list so ridiculous in its pricing and as a result it has become virtually useless for dealers to use. Unfortunately, many collectors expect otherwise, something that obviously doesn't work. Here are a few facts.
Fact 1:
-The greysheet originally was a WHOLESALE price list. That is, for dealer to dealer transactions.
Fact 2:
-The greysheet is the only wholesale price list available to the general public, in any collectibles market.
Fact 3:
-The publisher of the greysheet no longer employs anybody full-time for its pricing.
Fact 4:
-Auction results, in any segment of the market auction results are totally different from the greysheet pricing. Circulated Barbers, better Seated material, high-end Walkers. You name it and the greysheet is totally out of whack.
All of this has resulted in an attitude of the general public to use the greysheet as their only price guide, and to criticize dealer prices on all kinds of material. Even when the facts, auction results that is, are presented to them they point to the greysheet and say "But it's only $500 here. Why price coin .... at $1200?" (auction results for the same coin show prices between $1100 and $1400). Even for dealer to dealer transactions, the initial goal of the greysheet, it has become useless. Commemoratives are now priced at percentages of the greysheet, and traded at (various) big discounts. Same for run of the mill Morgan Dollars. Otherwise, dealers are unable to buy many coins at the "Ask" price in the greysheet. Then why do people expect us to sell coins to them at Bid prices? That never was the goal of the greysheet.
People need to realize that our market currently lacks a dealer to dealer price guide except for the most common coins. The greysheet has become somewhat of an outdated retail price guide, and thus is virtually worthless. It's the same as looking at the newspaper of last month and take those stock prices when you go trading. It doesn't work.
Any comments?
Dennis >>
Price guides are just that - guides. They are not carved in stone by the hand of God.
A coin is worth precisely what an informed seller and an informed buyer agree it is worth.
<< <i>I agree with you that the grey sheet is off in some aspects. Some coins they are spot on. Some coins they are not. But why pick on Commems? If I understood you right I believe you are saying that the Grey sheet has them priced to high? In my recent experiences I have purchased 3 Commems at grey sheet and turned them for profits on Ebay of all places.
Take a look at Harry Laibstain's pricing for Commems and you see what I mean.
Dennis
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Don't throw the Greysheet away yet. I know what you're saying and agree.
But, I know many dealers who live by it. It can be your best friend at times.
Just do your homework and the Greysheet may provide you with an oppurtunity to purchase a nice coin
for a good price.
now and does'nt reflect current trends, it's a guide and
just that. It has it goods and bads. Heck its the greysheet,
hince a lot of grey areas.
Steve
<< <i>I buy nicely toned pieces, the sheet is meaningless to me. I've never even looked at one. >>
To add to my original post a little. I think the Greysheet serves a great purpose for the average small town dealer.
They don't have the time or inclination to keep up with current trends. The sheet works fine for 99% of the
common stuff that walks in the door. They can buy and sell based on Greysheet, go to a big show once a year, and
sell most of the material they have purchased at wholesale.
It may not be anywhere close to accurate for high end material but is is used successfully by many small dealers
for most of the material they see.
I go to small shows and they express that "This is a show", "We do not have auction prices here", "We go by greysheet"....etc...they are just proving their ignorance. A lot of business is not conducted at these smaller shows because there is a pretty big break from reality.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>I go to small shows and they express that "This is a show", "We do not have auction prices here", "We go by greysheet"....etc...they are just proving their ignorance. A lot of business is not conducted at these smaller shows because there is a pretty big break from reality. >>
That might have been the case twenty years ago, but with the internet and cell phones that have immediate access to all auction records of, basically, the last ten years, such a comment is meaningless IMHO.
Dennis
Like VOC Numismatics on facebook
<< <i>
<< <i>I go to small shows and they express that "This is a show", "We do not have auction prices here", "We go by greysheet"....etc...they are just proving their ignorance. A lot of business is not conducted at these smaller shows because there is a pretty big break from reality. >>
That might have been the case twenty years ago, but with the internet and cell phones that have immediate access to all auction records of, basically, the last ten years, such a comment is meaningless IMHO.
Dennis >>
I still use greysheet as a general guide, knowing there are coins I like to buy for more than guide and there are some that are a joke at guide. My only problem with the last comment about phones and internet is that I don't like using it at a dealers table. I don't mind looking at the greysheet when talking to a dealer. I do mind asking to look at a coin and then pulling out the phone and fiddling for records. I do agree with phones and internet there are great resources available that may be superior to greysheet.
<< <i>.......... and thus is virtually worthless...... >>
I would call whomever has chosen to believe that information, regardless of source or reliability is worthless, ignorant to this industry/hobby.
Information, correct or not, is useful if you can apply it.
One of the regular dealers at our monthly show always tells potential customers that he sells at sheet prices.
This sounds great, but he is a notorious overgrader of his raw coins. The better stuff that is slabbed is no where near
sheet prices.
But I will say this: every time I offer a coin to a dealer they imediatly pull out the GS and quote me some 20-50% bellow the listed price.
Never has a dealer said I think the GS is a little low for the key-date you are offering me so I will offer you X% above the listed price.
I tried to sell a 1909-O 25cent PCGS30 and it was hard to get the $130 that the GS lists a VF coin (that typicaly sell for about $500).
<< <i>
<< <i>I go to small shows and they express that "This is a show", "We do not have auction prices here", "We go by greysheet"....etc...they are just proving their ignorance. A lot of business is not conducted at these smaller shows because there is a pretty big break from reality. >>
That might have been the case twenty years ago, but with the internet and cell phones that have immediate access to all auction records of, basically, the last ten years, such a comment is meaningless IMHO.
Dennis >>
I know...that's what I was saying. I guess I was not clear...oh well.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
too confusing
<< <i>" Grey is the British spelling, whereas gray is the American spelling"- wiki
too confusing >>
Not confusing...simple really...think "A" for America.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>
<< <i>" Grey is the British spelling, whereas gray is the American spelling"- wiki
too confusing >>
Not confusing...simple really...think "A" for America....... >>
......and "E" for England.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I just wish more dealers would sell me what I want to buy at Greysheet prices.....
Go to mid missouri!! They live by the greysheet!
Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
<< <i>I've wanted to write this post for quite awhile now but after the last Long Beach show I'm done with the greysheet. In not a single other collectible segment is a "wholesale" price list so ridiculous in its pricing and as a result it has become virtually useless for dealers to use. Unfortunately, many collectors expect otherwise, something that obviously doesn't work. Here are a few facts.
Fact 1:
-The greysheet originally was a WHOLESALE price list. That is, for dealer to dealer transactions.
Fact 2:
-The greysheet is the only wholesale price list available to the general public, in any collectibles market.
Fact 3:
-The publisher of the greysheet no longer employs anybody full-time for its pricing.
Fact 4:
-Auction results, in any segment of the market auction results are totally different from the greysheet pricing. Circulated Barbers, better Seated material, high-end Walkers. You name it and the greysheet is totally out of whack.
All of this has resulted in an attitude of the general public to use the greysheet as their only price guide, and to criticize dealer prices on all kinds of material. Even when the facts, auction results that is, are presented to them they point to the greysheet and say "But it's only $500 here. Why price coin .... at $1200?" (auction results for the same coin show prices between $1100 and $1400). Even for dealer to dealer transactions, the initial goal of the greysheet, it has become useless. Commemoratives are now priced at percentages of the greysheet, and traded at (various) big discounts. Same for run of the mill Morgan Dollars. Otherwise, dealers are unable to buy many coins at the "Ask" price in the greysheet. Then why do people expect us to sell coins to them at Bid prices? That never was the goal of the greysheet.
People need to realize that our market currently lacks a dealer to dealer price guide except for the most common coins. The greysheet has become somewhat of an outdated retail price guide, and thus is virtually worthless. It's the same as looking at the newspaper of last month and take those stock prices when you go trading. It doesn't work.
Any comments?
Dennis >>
So then why is the sheet the very 1st thing my local coin shop owners reach for when im trying to sell a coin?
I've never owned a CAC coin and I'm a dealer. However, where did I find out that CAC stickered coins sold for more money ? In the Coin Dealer's Newsletter.
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody.
It is handy reference for where a coin "pops" and identifying better dates. But I always start there and depending on what the coin is go up or down from there. You can't really use it for everything, but for the mainstay coins it works well enough.
Front page of August 26, 2011 Greysheet, the 2nd headline states: "ROOSEVELT DIME SELLS FOR $349,600"
the table below then states "1975 No S Roosevelt Dime PCGS PR68 $349,600"
But on page 7, in the listing for Proof Sets, the listing states: "1975 S no 'S' 10c Bid $37,000 Ask $41,000
. . . Yes, I know, not every 1975 No S dime will grade at PR68, but let's get real here, there are only two sets known, and the other one is worth a lot more than $41,000 after the sale of the first one!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>I have always believed that the hobby should have TWO prices listed for every coin. >>
Who is going to determine these prices? What if someone disagrees with these determinations?
Much easier- people should educate themselves on the things they intend to buy/sell and proceed accordingly.
edited to add... Sorry- it's not much easier. It's more like work. It's much easier to have someone else to do it for you.
<< <i>I took a PCGS MS64 Morgan dollar to a local dealer and they offered me $32 i ask how they can up with that and they told me they offer 50% of Greysheet bid on everythin >>
Sounds like someone is giving those hotel buyers some serious competition!
<< <i>
<< <i>I took a PCGS MS64 Morgan dollar to a local dealer and they offered me $32 i ask how they can up with that and they told me they offer 50% of Greysheet bid on everythin >>
Sounds like someone is giving those hotel buyers some serious competition! >>
But......But......B&M coin dealers have overhead to pay.
Something like this could be sold on the BST here for closer to Graysheet.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire