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Albanese to Head PNG Coin Doctoring Definition Committee
kimber45ACP
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The Professional Numismatists Guild (www.PNGdealers.com) has formed a committee composed of PNG members and non-members to research and draft an industry-acceptable definition of “coin doctoring.”
“They will draft an exhaustive but concise definition. Coin doctoring is a crucial, perplexing issue that needs to be addressed for the benefit of collectors and dealers,” said Jeffrey Bernberg, PNG President. “We’re determined to get this done.”
The committee is headed by John Albanese, President of Certified Acceptance Corporation (CAC) and the National Consumer Alliance (www.StopCoinFraud.com), a non-profit numismatic organization involved in consumer education and protection. Albanese was also a co-founder of Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) in 1986 and the founder of Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) in 1987, the two largest, independent third-party rare coin authentication and grading companies.
Also serving on the committee are former PNG Vice President John Feigenbaum of David Lawrence Rare Coins; Frank Greenberg of Delaware Valley Rare Coins; PNG Immediate Past President Paul Montgomery of American Precious Metals Exchange; Laura Sperber of Legend Numismatics; and Scott Travers, author of The Coin Collector’s Survival Manual.
Any other numismatic professionals interested in participating are invited to contact Albanese by email at shield30@aol.com.
“The committee consists of a varied group of respected numismatists who have a wide range of expertise. Our job is to specifically define coin doctoring so we can better protect consumers from buying coins that have been tampered with in a manner meant to deceptively alter a coin, and thus, affect the long-term value of their investment,” said Albanese.
“The doctoring problem plagues the industry as a whole and has the potential to affect the credibility of all rare coins, certified or otherwise. The PNG is the ideal organization to lead an unbiased charge against the unsavory tactics of coin doctors because the PNG stands at the forefront of numismatic integrity and leadership in the professional coin community.”
In July 2010, the PNG Board of Directors in partnership with NGC and PCGS adopted a definition of coin doctoring “to help combat the deliberative and unacceptable alteration of coins in an effort to deceive.” However, that definition subsequently was rejected by PNG members in January of this year.
“The PNG By-Laws provide the general membership with the opportunity to override decisions made by the Board. In this case, the membership voted overwhelmingly to keep the previous PNG Code of Ethics definition in place and not adopt a more-substantive new wording specifically about coin doctoring until the issue could be more clearly defined,” said PNG Executive Director Robert Brueggeman.
“We’re now working to get that clear definition and the consensus of the membership.”
The Professional Numismatists Guild (www.PNGdealers.com) has formed a committee composed of PNG members and non-members to research and draft an industry-acceptable definition of “coin doctoring.”
“They will draft an exhaustive but concise definition. Coin doctoring is a crucial, perplexing issue that needs to be addressed for the benefit of collectors and dealers,” said Jeffrey Bernberg, PNG President. “We’re determined to get this done.”
The committee is headed by John Albanese, President of Certified Acceptance Corporation (CAC) and the National Consumer Alliance (www.StopCoinFraud.com), a non-profit numismatic organization involved in consumer education and protection. Albanese was also a co-founder of Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) in 1986 and the founder of Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) in 1987, the two largest, independent third-party rare coin authentication and grading companies.
Also serving on the committee are former PNG Vice President John Feigenbaum of David Lawrence Rare Coins; Frank Greenberg of Delaware Valley Rare Coins; PNG Immediate Past President Paul Montgomery of American Precious Metals Exchange; Laura Sperber of Legend Numismatics; and Scott Travers, author of The Coin Collector’s Survival Manual.
Any other numismatic professionals interested in participating are invited to contact Albanese by email at shield30@aol.com.
“The committee consists of a varied group of respected numismatists who have a wide range of expertise. Our job is to specifically define coin doctoring so we can better protect consumers from buying coins that have been tampered with in a manner meant to deceptively alter a coin, and thus, affect the long-term value of their investment,” said Albanese.
“The doctoring problem plagues the industry as a whole and has the potential to affect the credibility of all rare coins, certified or otherwise. The PNG is the ideal organization to lead an unbiased charge against the unsavory tactics of coin doctors because the PNG stands at the forefront of numismatic integrity and leadership in the professional coin community.”
In July 2010, the PNG Board of Directors in partnership with NGC and PCGS adopted a definition of coin doctoring “to help combat the deliberative and unacceptable alteration of coins in an effort to deceive.” However, that definition subsequently was rejected by PNG members in January of this year.
“The PNG By-Laws provide the general membership with the opportunity to override decisions made by the Board. In this case, the membership voted overwhelmingly to keep the previous PNG Code of Ethics definition in place and not adopt a more-substantive new wording specifically about coin doctoring until the issue could be more clearly defined,” said PNG Executive Director Robert Brueggeman.
“We’re now working to get that clear definition and the consensus of the membership.”
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I wish them well in their attempt(s).
it might also dissolve into wrangling over terminology. I'm skeptical. Prove me wrong, guys.
She talks the talk..............
I do hope they can get this done.
Tom
<< <i>Let's see if Miss Sperber can get something done now that she's at bat.
She talks the talk..............
I do hope they can get this done.
Is Laura now a member of PNG and part of this committee?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's see if Miss Sperber can get something done now that she's at bat.
She talks the talk..............
I do hope they can get this done.
Is Laura now a member of PNG and part of this committee? >>
Non-PNG members can be on the committee. She's on the committee but I'm not sure if she's a PNG member or non-member.
It appears whatever definition the committee drafts still needs to be approved by the general membership.
Kinda like trying to define "irony." It's hard to put your finger on a concrete definition, but you know what it is when you see it.
Y'all scream bloody murder about the "crimes" by coin doctors but the FIRST time a serious endeavor is made to address the issue, there's doubts and naysayers? Man....life IS tough.
Laura is not a PNG member, but she
will be an important member of this
committee.
As you mentioned, it sometimes seems
that any 'hot topic' here, no matter how
it's addressed, makes some folks un-happy.
There's a problem, there was an attempt
to address it, and now it's being addressed
once again by some very respected people
in our industry and hobby.
EVERYONE should be glad that at least there
is an attempt to define the problem's description.
At this point, there's no reason to be picky,
dissapointed, or cynical.
Some of you guys can't simply be that unhappy
and miserable on a day to day basis, can you?
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
For how long?
Who constitutes the "industry"?
The PNG, for its own future relevance, needs to take a stand against fake heads, artificial frost, lasering, etc.
<< <i>"industry acceptable"
For how long?
Who constitutes the "industry"? >>
It would be good to get clarification on that but I'm guessing it would include the PNG general membership, PCGS and ATS.
<< <i>I'm skeptical as to the utility of such an endeavor.
Kinda like trying to define "irony." It's hard to put your finger on a concrete definition, but you know what it is when you see it. >>
It's soooooo hard...
GEEZ!!!
<< <i>Man...once again, you could offer people here free $100 bills and half would turn them down because "it just doesn't make sense."
Y'all scream bloody murder about the "crimes" by coin doctors but the FIRST time a serious endeavor is made to address the issue, there's doubts and naysayers? Man....life IS tough.
I'm not saying people shouldn't fight coin doctoring, but exact definitions.... wow.
It is going to be tough in some cases.
tooling is an easy one. if it wasn't struck that way or received post strike damage that was modified with tools, then that's coin doctoring. You put tool to coin metal and move that metal... you're changing what was made. Seems simple.
Chemically altering a coins surface? a bit harder.
dipping off some ugly color could be ok, but where does one draw the line between a light dip and overdipped?
making a surgical chemical warfare strike on PVC? that's conservation.
making a surgical chemical strike on an ugly spot? i dunno?
Using chemicals to add color? Well..... knowing a dansco can tone coins or that old cardboard mint set inserts are not inert can alter coins.... how does that get differentiated from the ridiculously easy to spot eBay rainbow tone jobs we post here?? What verbiage will be used?
The best I can come up with is "know it when it is seen."
"intent" is certainly not going to get written in.
Anyway... good luck to them.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>Seems like a start. >>
It is.
That's a good point.
A Start is something that should be celebrated, and I missed that point in my first pass(post).
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's see if Miss Sperber can get something done now that she's at bat.
She talks the talk..............
I do hope they can get this done.
Is Laura now a member of PNG and part of this committee? >>
You know.... I hate to say this....
but I hope she is on the committee, however I hope someone else does the written part. No insult to her, since my writing is often lacking as well.
>>>But I hope this doesn't turn into a flame fest on her. Continually poking at her writing is just beating a dead horse.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>As you mentioned, it sometimes seems
that any 'hot topic' here, no matter how
it's addressed, makes some folks un-happy.
:
:
:
EVERYONE should be glad that at least there
is an attempt to define the problem's description.
At this point, there's no reason to be picky,
dissapointed, or cynical.
Some of you guys can't simply be that unhappy
and miserable on a day to day basis, can you? >>
Simple rules.
1. Can't please everyone.
2. Can't write something that everyone understands.
3. Being on the outside looking in, people will offer opinions about "what's wrong" no matter what you do (see 1 & 2). (hey, and everything can be improved upon, no?)
Expect it and you won't be disappointed.
But yes. I must re-iterate this is an excellent thing that they have started.
we can all say: finally, there is some movement where we've been wanting them to go.
and LS needs to go in there and emphatically give without hesistation what I'm sure will be golden ideas that she has in her head already.
<< <i>Once they get this "definition", will PNG forbid their members from dealing in doctored coins without full disclosure? >>
this is why LS needs to emphatically state without hesitation what's on her mind.
I hope that is the least that she states.
<< <i>Once they get this "definition", will PNG forbid their members from dealing in doctored coins without full disclosure? >>
Theoretically, disclosure of doctored coins should be covered under rule 7 of the Code of Ethics already, but it seems more clarification is desired.
Kewpie Doll award-10/29/2007
Successful BST transactions with Coinboy and Wondercoin.
<< <i>Man...once again, you could offer people here free $100 bills and half would turn them down because "it just doesn't make sense."
Y'all scream bloody murder about the "crimes" by coin doctors but the FIRST time a serious endeavor is made to address the issue, there's doubts and naysayers? Man....life IS tough.
Not quite sure what your post is all about, since there were only two people (myself included) who expressed doubts at the time of your post. I've never been a person who loudly ranted against coin doctoring... I've always been quite passive on the issue. This is because I find the debates about coin doctoring to be totally useless.
While most people here could tell you that the hard-surfaced circ-cameo VF seated lib half that a random person may post is "original," probably 90% of the people here (or throughout the hobby) have little idea what a well-doctored coin looks like. And even people that know what they're doing have widely varying opinions of what is acceptable doctoring. So to define a problem, which 90% of the hobby cannot identify, and which the remaining 10% has differing opinions as to how problematic it actually is, seems a little futile to me. Yes, there are methods that obviously fit the moniker of "doctoring," such as whizzing, but these are methods that are already universally agreed upon as bad.
And this is the "FIRST" effort? The grading services have been trying to effectively define and combat doctoring for twenty years.
<< <i>Once they get this "definition", will PNG forbid their members from dealing in doctored coins without full disclosure? >>
Many experts may not be able to spot expertly doctored coins, so "full disclosure" as the dealer thinks it may not actually be the truth.
This is the first real start.
<< <i>
<< <i>Once they get this "definition", will PNG forbid their members from dealing in doctored coins without full disclosure? >>
Many experts may not be able to spot expertly doctored coins, so "full disclosure" as the dealer thinks it may not actually be the truth. >>
True, and "wow! I didn't catch that." are going to be popular phrases in the future.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Once they get this "definition", will PNG forbid their members from dealing in doctored coins without full disclosure? >>
Many experts may not be able to spot expertly doctored coins, so "full disclosure" as the dealer thinks it may not actually be the truth. >>
True, and "wow! I didn't catch that." are going to be popular phrases in the future. >>
I should have said "......knowingly dealing in doctored coins without full disclosure". Obviously, if the doctoring is really well executed, the dealer may be unaware that it has been doctored.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I for one would be very happy to be proven wrong.
The going won't be easy, but this is a start. As GoldenEye correctly stated, many knowledgeable people in the industry cannot spot an skillfully doctored coin. Perhaps this committee will enlighten many on this subject.
In a perfect world, the result of this committee's work will thrown the concept of "market acceptable" in the trash heap.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
<< <i>The PNG is the ideal organization to lead an unbiased charge against the unsavory tactics of coin doctors because the PNG stands at the forefront of numismatic integrity and leadership in the professional coin community.”
>>
Anybody else find the humor in this rather self-serving statement?
If this group can get the definition finalized hope it can also be adopted into the code of the ANA.
<< <i>
<< <i>The PNG is the ideal organization to lead an unbiased charge against the unsavory tactics of coin doctors because the PNG stands at the forefront of numismatic integrity and leadership in the professional coin community.”
>>
Anybody else find the humor in this rather self-serving statement? >>
I assumed he was being facetious. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>It's a start. To see Laura on board with the PNG (or is it the other way around) in this endeavor indicates a bit of a truce for now. >>
It's going to get interesting to see who embraces who, and for how long.
Considering the number of doctored coins out there, it will be even more interesting to see what kinds of doctoring is deemed acceptable and what kinds are not.
Maybe there is the potential for something significant to come about that injects some new confidence into our hobby. That's a good thing, right?
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The same way TPGs have reduced inconsistencies with grading, hopefully the PNG's efforts here will reduce inconsistencies with doctoring.
Some have expressed the opinion that TPGs are not needed; however, on the balance, they seem to help rather than hinder the hobby. Hopefully the PNG will be the same here.
... well nevermind. High 5's to the upper echelon for their dilgence in this matter.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The PNG is the ideal organization to lead an unbiased charge against the unsavory tactics of coin doctors because the PNG stands at the forefront of numismatic integrity and leadership in the professional coin community.”
>>
Anybody else find the humor in this rather self-serving statement? >>
I assumed he was being facetious. MJ >>
.......or sarcastic.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.