Are PCGS graders allowed to collect coins?
Dennis88
Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭
Not buy and sell as a dealer, just collect. Are they allowed to do so?
I was thinking about this the other day after I talked to another person about conflicts of interest (although that was not coin related). I can understand that they are probably not allowed to be a parttime dealer in the weekends, but what about just collecting?
Dennis
I was thinking about this the other day after I talked to another person about conflicts of interest (although that was not coin related). I can understand that they are probably not allowed to be a parttime dealer in the weekends, but what about just collecting?
Dennis
0
Comments
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>I think only ANACS has a policy of not allowing their graders to buy coins. Other grading companies allow their graders to buy for their collection but are not allowed to sell coins or use information learned from grading submissions to broker deals. >>
I think I know one ANACS grader who collects but he has told me he tries to not buy anything he graded. He said it is hard to know what he has/has not graded but in general he avoids any he thinks he was involved in.
<< <i>
I think I know one ANACS grader who collects but he has told me he tries to not buy anything he graded. He said it is hard to know what he has/has not graded but in general he avoids any he thinks he was involved in. >>
That seems pretty crazy. With the volume they must go through I dont know how any grader could keep track of coins unless they were the TOP TOP pieces.
<< <i>I think only ANACS has a policy of not allowing their graders to buy coins. >>
I know that ICG had this policy once upon a time, but I didn't think ANACS did. Of course, those policies may have been turned on their ears a few times during all the ownership changes a few years ago. I know that ANACS's main attributor collects, but he's not technically a grader.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>The grading companies also employ part time graders who are full time dealers. >>
Capital investment depends on confidence. - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>Other grading companies allow their graders to buy for their collection but are not allowed to sell coins or use information learned from grading submissions to broker deals. >>
Not exactly.... you can't tell someone they can buy coins and never sell them. Well, I suppose you could, but it's unrealistic. My understanding is that full-time professional graders can not buy and sell coins commercially, key word "commercially". They can buy for collections, buy for investment purposes, and at some point sell coins but a reasonable holding period is expected.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
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You really shouldn't put ICG in the same sentence with ANACS. ANACS coins are usually very nice.
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>This is not the old communist Soviet Union. People can collect coins if they want to, regardless of where they work. >>
A clueless comment.
If the grading services have it as a condition of employment, similar to a non-disclosure clause, and the employee agrees, it's a done deal. Government has nothing to do with it.
(typo edited)
<< <i>This is not the old communist Soviet Union. People can collect coins if they want to, regardless of where they work. >>
An employer may impose certain restrictions as a condition of employment. True, we don't live in the old communist Soviet Union, but there are employment rules that exist to avoid malfeasance or unjust enrichment, or the appearance thereof.
David Hall is a coin collector and coin dealer and noone seems to know if he is a coin grader. So figure it out !
Stewart
<< <i>David Hall is a coin collector and coin dealer and noone seems to know if he is a coin grader. So figure it out !
Stewart >>
Sounds like there is some animosity between you and DH.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>How would they know the grader is a collector? I think it would be absurd for the grading company to have a policy like this. >>
It's interesting that you think such a policy would be absurd.
Do you think it's absurd that a company would want to protect its reputation as an independant authority by not having its employees (the people whose job it is to render an independant opinion) engaged in the the buying and selling of the commodities they're entrusted with?
I'm not trying to be obtuse, and I know we live in the real world where things of this nature probably occur. But I would think that a company who stakes its reputation on the services they provide, would want to curb any shenanigans by its employees that would cloud the company's reputation.
Now if you asked your buddy the other coin grader to give it a MS65 and you were found out I am sure both your jobs would be on the line and since these jobs are long term, high paid, interesting jobs, I doubt both you and your buddy wouldn't want to take that kind of risk.
So in reality, even if you are allowed to submit your own I can't see it happening.
Just another point to add. Even if staff had to sign a deceleration to say they couldn't collect coins, who is going to search their houses, safe deposit boxes etc.. and what's to stop a coin grader giving a a coin to a friend to submit it or to a friend to pass onto a dealer to submit it?
...i'll bet there may be some 'closet collectors' that work at the TPG's out there.
<< <i>
<< <i>How would they know the grader is a collector? I think it would be absurd for the grading company to have a policy like this. >>
It's interesting that you think such a policy would be absurd.
Do you think it's absurd that a company would want to protect its reputation as an independant authority by not having its employees (the people whose job it is to render an independant opinion) engaged in the the buying and selling of the commodities they're entrusted with?
I'm not trying to be obtuse, and I know we live in the real world where things of this nature probably occur. But I would think that a company who stakes its reputation on the services they provide, would want to curb any shenanigans by its employees that would cloud the company's reputation. >>
Read Rickos excellent response below. Even if it was a valid idea it would be all but unenforceable. As i said, an absurd idea.
<< <i>You really shouldn't put ICG in the same sentence with ANACS. ANACS coins are usually very nice. >>
Historically (i.e. before the shakeups of the last couple years) I think ICG's grading below about MS-63 was as conservative as anyone's -- particularly for circulated coins. When I was collecting slabbed AU-58 type a few years back many of the best "supersliders" I saw in 58 holders were ICG coins.
<< <i>A better question is are they allowed to submit coins for grading?
Ah, you beat me to it. That is a very good question!
The Penny Lady®
Wrong Wrong Wrong
Alll coin graders must have collected coins at one time in their life.
Most auction company employees collect and buy and sell coins
PM me if you want names
STewart
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How would they know the grader is a collector? I think it would be absurd for the grading company to have a policy like this. >>
It's interesting that you think such a policy would be absurd.
Do you think it's absurd that a company would want to protect its reputation as an independant authority by not having its employees (the people whose job it is to render an independant opinion) engaged in the the buying and selling of the commodities they're entrusted with?
I'm not trying to be obtuse, and I know we live in the real world where things of this nature probably occur. But I would think that a company who stakes its reputation on the services they provide, would want to curb any shenanigans by its employees that would cloud the company's reputation. >>
Read Rickos excellent response below. Even if it was a valid idea it would be all but unenforceable. As i said, an absurd idea. >>
With regards to Rickos response...the examples he sites are not accurate for comparision.
Sure stock brokers can buy and sell stocks for themselves. But, do you think the CEO of a publically traded company that is engaged in a merger with another company is allowed to trade the stocks of either company? NO. It's called insider trading.
Sure, real estate brokers are allowed to buy and sell real estate, and liquor dealers buy and sell liquor, but these are false equavelents that have nothing to do with the this type of situation.
To get back on track, we have one party that is being entrusted with validating and passing a judgement on something. They are hired to be a 3rd party independant judge who should not be allowed to personally gain from their position of employment. It makes sense that a company who employs someone in such a position would want to maintain a level of objectivity.
I'm sure the graders at PCGS have their own collections and buy and sell coins. I'm also sure PCGS has rules in place where their graders are not allowed to submit, grade, and slab their own coins.
Does that make sense, or does it still sound absurd?
Always have wondered if graders slab their own coins, or have a friend submit
and mark the submission with a secret code. Wouldn't be to difficult. I would imagine
PCGS maintains a STRICT policy against this activity.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If you are working in such an intensive position as a PCGS grader you a) have to enjoy coins very much b) have earlier experience, which will mostly be as a collector. I don't see an avid collector stop collecting once they get their "dream job". If I got a job in a hobby I truly enjoyed (and I would have to be to make my hobby a job) that doesn't mean I will give up the hobby. Personally, I think that would be very difficult.
Dennis
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