Is the Canadian coin market really this dead?

ajaan

1929 25c NGC AU50 with some very minor surface hairlines. Trends for C$125 in AU. Sold on eBay tonight for $22.77. My coin, my major hit.

ormandh

wybrit

It stinks. I've taken some big hits on British coins on ebay in the last 6 months too.

JCMhouston

I personally think it's the market. Decent coins go for very little money, it takes a high grade or real rarity to get any kind of decent money, and those tend to go to the moon. The middle market collector has been hurt a lot worse than many want to believe over the past two years.

1960NYGiants

Yes the market is very slow, except for key dates / varieties. I watched the last Torex, Geoff Bell, and RCNA auctions. Lots were selling at less than 50% of CCN Trends and those with reserves above 60% of Trends typically went unsold. I wish that I had the $$$ to have been able to bid, there would be a lot fewer holes in my set.

pruebas

<< <i>I personally think it's the market. Decent coins go for very little money, it takes a high grade or real rarity to get any kind of decent money, and those tend to go to the moon. The middle market collector has been hurt a lot worse than many want to believe over the past two years. >>

Even some of the rarities are not doing so well unless in ultra-high graded slabs.

Also the high cost of coins in general causing a decline in collectors doing date/mint/assayer sets, leading to a decline in demand for key/rare dates in a series.

I've actually been able to pick up some very rare coins at great prices, albeit in low grades (even if they are among the finest known).

Pokermandude

Agreed, most common/mid-grade coins are bringing very little money. Especially the Canadian 5c/10c/25c series. I've also noticed most prices on NGC graded Canadian coins (especially silver, 5c through 50c) are soft because NGC tends to over grade those issues.

I could easily see why your NGC AU50 (cleaned?) piece sold for what it did. An NGC AU50 graded quarter often looks about EF40 compared to ICCS graded pieces. Add in some hairlines and you're looking at VF30 money. Or as is typical of Ebay, people bidding up to around 70-80% of the value they see in the coin. My (somewhat old) CCN trends show VF: $20 EF: $55 AU: $100

Edit to add another example of a poor performing NGC graded Canadian coin. It has a pretty bad picture, but I'd guess it's a VF30-EF40.

1930 10c NGC AU50 sold for $17. CCN trends VF: $7 EF: $25 AU: $55

Bjorn

It seems like some of the better dates still bring decent money even in the lowest grades, while there seems to be some weakness in the 'middle market' of coins which would normally sell in the $50 - $250 range, particularly for common or even slightly scarcer dates in better grades. For example, I recently sold a dinged but attractive 1884 5 cent and a holed Newfoundland 1885 5 cent for decent money, but when I offered several much nicer 10 cent and 25 cent pieces from the 1910s and 1920s they failed to reach even close to book value, often going for bullion or a bit more.

syl

<< <i>I watched the last Torex, Geoff Bell, and RCNA auctions. Lots were selling at less than 50% of CCN Trends and those with reserves above 60% of Trends typically went unsold. >>



I wouldn't put alot of credence in the RCNA or Torex auctions. Both were conducted by the same auctioneer and most of the unsolds were their own coins ... and those were started at much much higher openings than consignment coins. It is much better to personally attend a TCNC auction rather than depend upon the catalogue and descriptions. All may not be what it appears to be. And for Don ... NGC doesn't have the greatest track record for Canadian material. Usually great photos will compensate for NGC questions.

ajaan

Here's the 1929 25c

Also fot killed on this token

I can now see why there isn't many 99c start Canadian coin auctions on eBay.

syl

That token only got the "F" part of grading right, because I think that it's VF-20 at best. The 25 cent is not close to AU ... too much wear and the surface scratches are leftovers from a non-gentle mechanical cleaning. They are all light and in the same direction. It should have sold at a 40 price.

LouisCamp

Just starting to collect Canadian 50c pieces. Everyone I bid on goes for a lot more then I thought they were worth.

Lou

SYRACUSIAN

<< <i>Here's the 1929 25c


I can now see why there isn't many 99c start Canadian coin auctions on eBay. >>




It would be interesting to hear from members who sell regularly on ebay, either no reserve $0.99 start, or they have an ebay shop and they sell only at BIN or at BIN+ best offer, and how effective that second approach is. Is it worth setting up an ebay shop with reasonable BINS or is it just a waste of listing and other ebay fees?

Pokermandude

<< <i>Here's the 1929 25c
>>



Ah I remember seeing that one. I regularly watch jkcoins' auctions. FWIW, I'd pin it at EF-45, then downgrade for the hairlines.

IloiloKano

Several posts here seem to have either implied or directly stated that NGC graded Canadian pieces are commonly over-graded when compared to ICCS graded pieces.

If that is true, how does PCGS compare to ICCS?

ajaan, sorry for your major hits. I've been there a few times myself, and it's still a bit gut wrenching when I remember those hits. Though my interests don't generally lie in the Canadian category, the link you provided afforded me the opportunity to add you to my favorite sellers.

Pokermandude

<< <i>Several posts here seem to have either implied or directly stated that NGC graded Canadian pieces are commonly over-graded when compared to ICCS graded pieces.

If that is true, how does PCGS compare to ICCS? >>



In my experience, PCGS grades most issues quite well. A little loose at times in the smaller silver denominations 5c-25c in the Fine-AU range, but not too bad. I think they are solid on silver dollars, at all grades.

I don't mean to say that ICCS is the be all end all of Canadian grading, they have their own issues too. You'll rarely find a real dog in an ICCS holder, but the price for this is many strictly graded coins. I don't like their Red/RB designations. It seems to be something like Red = 50%+ red mint luster, RB = 20-49%, Trace red = 5-19%, Brown <5%

I prefer ICCS over PCGS by just a small margin for Canadian coins. NGC is a distant 3rd, Anacs an even more distant 4th and most other companies are not even worth mentioning.

ajaan

<< <i>If that is true, how does PCGS compare to ICCS? >>


Let's see. How do you think ICCS would grade these coins? What grade would you give them?

Bjorn

ICCS would probably grade them F 15 and VF 20 respectively - I would grade them VF and VF+, but I don't tend to use numeric grades.

Edit: I think most US dealers would grade them VF+ and aEF.

questor54

<< <i>Here's the 1929 25c

Also fot killed on this token

I can now see why there isn't many 99c start Canadian coin auctions on eBay. >>



Yes, but your nice China is selling well. You have some really nice coins.

Pokermandude

<< <i>

<< <i>If that is true, how does PCGS compare to ICCS? >>


Let's see. How do you think ICCS would grade these coins? What grade would you give them? >>



I'd grade them EF40 and VF30. On a really bad day the 1933 quarter might only make VF30 at ICCS.

coinkat

what a depressing thread- sorry Ajaan

From where I sit- (in the cheap seats of course...), the Canadian market is weak but the coin needs to be considered on its own merit regardless of the rest of the market.

I would rather not comment on the 1929 Quarter because it was net graded and the image may or may capture the real issues that the graders saw.

As for the New Brunswick token- I like it and it looked very original and attractive. I respectfully disagree with a VF20- Why? look at the lustre, fields and just the overall original appearance. The obverse strike is weak which is common- I don't see 45 as an unreasonable grade.

Lets talk about the 1933 Quarter- I will be a buyer for that coin all day long at VF- mainly because it is an EF coin- nice original surfaces. If there are surface issues which are not detectable in the images, it should grade 40. The biggest issue with George V silver is recognizing typical inferior strikes and confusing that with wear. It is essential to look at the fields, the luster and that speaks volumes as to what the grade should be- in terms of circulated grades, its hard to be critical if details were never fully struck.

I do not think a broad charaterization can be made about NGC over grading- look at coins individually and don't get caught up in the plastic- plastic can be changed- the originality of the coin can not

syl

ICCS has become quite generous with their grading in the last few years, the last year especially. The silver would be XF-45 minimum now, and probably AU. The large cent has lost some patina much more than actual wear. I would think that the DP#2 would get an XF-40 from Brian, but may have a comment about the (chip/gash?) at about 4-5:00 on the edge .. maybe it's just my monitor. A grade can change 10 points either way by having it in hand, rather than a computer monitor .. there is no more inaccurate way to grade a coin than looking at a photo on a monitor.

questor54

<< <i>look at coins individually and don't get caught up in the plastic- plastic can be changed- the originality of the coin can not >>



BRAVO!

coinpictures

My less than 2 cents:

I don't think it's just Canadian coins; commerce is down on all fronts.

That said, I'm not surprised that the Canadian quarter did as poorly as it did: it's in a problem holder. That's the death knell for any no-reserve auction. There's a certain cross-section of the collecting population (and a fairly large one at that) that will avoid ANY coin in a problem holder... which chops down your audience to begin with. Those that remain will expect to get the coin at a HEAVY discount... 2-3 grades worth if not more.

Combine the above with the fact that auctions depend on the right sets of eyeballs (and wallets) shopping during that 7-day period, and you can really be gambling on the timing unless your merchandise is stellar enough to be grabbing everyone's attention.... which this coin certainly was not.

I stopped doing auctions years ago. eBay Store with BIN and Best Offer. With that I can control my downside risk. Sure, I may never get moon money from a pair of bidiots going at one another, but I'll never take one in the keester either.

Combine the store listings with the Markdown Manager and the ability to run "XX% Off!" sales, and it does fine.

If you need money quickly, fixed price is not the way to go, but if you're patient it works out better over the long haul. Start your listings high with Best Offer and gradually decrease the prices over time or use periodic sales.

In my opinion buying is down on eBay compared to 3-6 years ago; the level of discretionary income isn't out there the way it used to be. This is not the time to be gambling with no-reserve auctions...

IloiloKano

Thanks, coinpictures, for the sensible advice.

Some of us only sell occasionally; we do not have eBay stores. So I suppose either 10 day Buy-It-Now or high starting bid are our only options in this environment.

cladking

It's a shame. Canada can be a depressing market even during good times. It's mostly
that there are so many Canada collectors in the US and availabilty can be very high for
some coins at a given time. As bad as the prices listed here are just try to move modern
Canadian. On the plus side the C$ is high so at least you can spend them.

The old silver is not common in high grades and really should do better. Be wary of the
copper though since these can bite you too if you sell at the wrong time or pay too dearly.

You have my condolences.

ajaan

1933 25c PCGS AU53

1859 1c PCGS XF45

coinkat

the grade on 1933 is not surprising

syl

Well, I guess that I was almost bang-on on those last 2 coins. I wasn't trying to diss you or your coins, Don.... you know me better than that. You asked a question and I gave my opinion. You CAN find some real bargains on NGC-graded Canadian coins, but their rep up here is not the greatest for coins that are not in-hand. I will stick with my VF assessment of the token. I have seen XF's and AU's of the same coin and they looked nothing like the one shown. Normally a weak strike will be mainly evident just on one side only, with the other more crisp. That token was weak or worn on both sides appreciably.

IloiloKano

<< <i>Normally a weak strike will be mainly evident just on one side only, with the other more crisp. >>

Huh?
I beg to differ. Mechanically speaking, in striking a coin there are very few ways, (none of them naturally occurring), where higher pressure can be applied to one side without applying equal pressure to the other side of a coin.

Pokermandude

I'd have said EF40 for the 1859 cent, but there's just a little too much wear on the cheek and neck. Plus the rim nick 4'oclock on the reverse. ICCS doesn't use the VF-35 grade, so still I think they'd grade it VF30 rather than EF.

YQQ

Bill,
I think you are dead on..
h

rec78

Is the Canadian coin market really this dead?Text

Not for the coins I need.

The right bidders just missed these.

Bob

Coulport

<< <i>Yes the market is very slow, except for key dates / varieties. I wish that I had the $$$ to have been able to bid, there would be a lot fewer holes in my set. >>



That sums up the market in more areas than just one. Folks just don't have the $$$.

DoubleEagle59

The Canadian market is extremely slow.

Good quality, key date coins will still sell, albeit at lower levels than a few years ago.

Great time to be a buyer though.

Personally, I'm trying to sell