<< <i>Respectfully, was the comment in the story about reducing the deficit by $20 million a serious attempt to incent the sellers? As the President leads us out of the current financial turmoil, I doubt that $20 million will hit the radar. >>
$20 million here, $20 million there--soon, your talking about real money!
<< <i>Respectfully, was the comment in the story about reducing the deficit by $20 million a serious attempt to incent the sellers? As the President leads us out of the current financial turmoil, I doubt that $20 million will hit the radar. >>
The Government has probably pissed away more than $100 million in the time it would take an average person to read this thread.
<< <i>Respectfully, was the comment in the story about reducing the deficit by $20 million a serious attempt to incent the sellers? As the President leads us out of the current financial turmoil, I doubt that $20 million will hit the radar. >>
Which is probably what is going to happen at the end.
(Or the fed is going to be the idiots they are and say NO WE ARE GOING TO STORE THESE AS EVIDENCE and have the coins rot away until the fed collapses.)(stupid pride)
"I'd rather see them preserved in the public's hands since you just can't seem to trust the gov't these days."
..just THESE DAYS?
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
<< <i>First off it should be illegal to melt aka destory our history ie illegal to destroy the 10 Saints or any other. Why have any institution if not to preserve our past. I rather see them preserved in the public's hands since you just can't seem to trust the gov't these days. >>
No one could seriously think that this is anything other than a P.R. move since:
1. the lawsuit is not over (more stuff to happen in the trial court; and probably an appeal) so the issue of who owns the coins has not yet been resolved; and
2. it is unlikely that the government would ever chose to sell the ten coins into the market place (due to the position it has taken all along regarding these coins [they are not legal to own]; and due to the representation made by the government to the purchaser of the Fenton coin).
Get congress involved, they can authorize the release. Frame it as one of those government wastes, perfectly good offer to make millions for the people, squandered by bureaucratic misfits at Treasury.
I wonder is my old customer is reading this. The one who I offered the 1st 1933 ( the one that was busted ) for $500,000 (cost) + $100K to me. Told me that was too much!
If the government was paid $10 trillion for these ten double eagles, I suspect that not more than a token payment (i.e. $10 billion) of the $10 trillion would be used to pay down the $14+ trillion national debt. Instead, all monies above the token payment would be used to increase the operating budgets of countless government agenices; and would be used to fund the creation and operation (well at least for a year or two) countless newly created government agencies and programs
Instead, all monies above the token payment would be used to increase the operating budgets of countless government agenices; and would be used to fund the creation and operation (well at least for a year or two) countless newly created government agencies and programs
To make the government look better, employ workers in quango jobs, to make the unemployment statistics look better and to win the next election. Same as its always been done in many countries by many governments.
FYI...JA DOES have buyers for the coins! Unquestionably.
I think he wanted to make many points, most of which have been discussed here. PR? Sure, why not? It's all made with honorable intentions, "let's at least preserve these coins and not melt them, there is great INTEREST in US coins", whatever. Certainly very pro-coin collecting. John cares about the coin community and especially collectors. Anyone who's met him knows that he's deeply committed to maintaing the highest standards the coin world can....if not by making them higher.
He's a pretty smart guy, this Albanese character. Hell, he talks to me everyday!
I hate to tell you guys this...but these coins and their value means just about nothing to Government agencies.
It will come down to a 23 year old girl with some 'title' saying (and having the authority) ....."OH, these are pretty, lets make a nice exhibit of them and put them in the Smithsonian. "
<< <i>I hate to tell you guys this...but these coins and their value means just about nothing to Government agencies.
It will come down to a 23 year old girl with some 'title' saying (and having the authority) ....."OH, these are pretty, lets make a nice exhibit of them and put them in the Smithsonian. "
end of story. >>
My guess is they store them in a warehouse somewhere out of sight of anyone!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
it is unlikely that the government would ever chose to sell the ten coins into the market place (due to the position it has taken all along regarding these coins [they are not legal to own]; and due to the representation made by the government to the purchaser of the Fenton coin)
Other than clear title, what representations were made to the purchaser of the Fenton coin?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>No way that happens, 20 mil for the US Gov. is like 20c in my pocket, its basically useless to them and not the best bride. CAC needs to step up the offer to 100 mil to even get the Gov's attention. >>
But wouldn't that be like $1.00 in their pocket?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
At what point or chain of command would any acceptance of such a telegram/offer put the 1933 Saints in the legality category to own/sell? JA gets a telegram back that says "thank you for your offer" but they turned it down.........what would that imply?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I do not recall the specific wording of the paperwork issued by the government in connection with the sale of the Fenton coin. This topic has been covered in prior threads. However, I understand that the government communicated (represented, told, stated, conveyed, etc....) to the buyer that the coin sold at the auction would be the only 1933 double eagle that can be privately owned.
Now whether or not what the government communicated to the buyer would be something that the buyer could base a lawsuit on if other 1933 double eagles were later made capable of private ownership, I would think it unlikely that the government (if the final outcome of the Langbord case is that the ten coins are determined to be owned by the government) would choose to sell any of the ten coins.
<< <i>Let's call it a telegram from JA to the US Gov.
My question is....
At what point or chain of command would any acceptance of such a telegram/offer put the 1933 Saints in the legality category to own/sell? JA gets a telegram back that says "thank you for your offer" but they turned it down.........what would that imply? >>
I doubt if they would bother to even respond to such a low ball offer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
These coins have been seen, especially at the Denver ANA where they could be evaluated to the n-th degree. Thus, I find it interesting that the CAC offer is "sight-unseen", and might be more once the coins are examined. Does anyone really think these 10 1933 double eagles still are "sight-unseen"? >>
Was JA even at the Denver ANA? >>
If he wasn't you can bet that NJCoinCrank or others that assist JA did see them. JA could have simply picked up the phone and talked to principals at NGC who no doubt viewed each coin very closely. And while CAC may be a big deal for many coins. I don't think it's quite as necessary when one is talking about 1804 dollars and 1933 Saints. The NGC grade is probably close enough for dealing with these rarities. It's not like they're going to have fugly toning on them or be hacked up. Most of these probably grade 63 to 65 and there's probably good reason to believe that the puttyman did not have visit with these coins.
I do not recall the specific wording of the paperwork issued by the government in connection with the sale of the Fenton coin. This topic has been covered in prior threads. However, I understand that the government communicated (represented, told, stated, conveyed, etc....) to the buyer that the coin sold at the auction would be the only 1933 double eagle that can be privately owned.
Now whether or not what the government communicated to the buyer would be something that the buyer could base a lawsuit on if other 1933 double eagles were later made capable of private ownership, I would think it unlikely that the government (if the final outcome of the Langbord case is that the ten coins are determined to be owned by the government) would choose to sell any of the ten coins. >>
<< <i>Let's call it a telegram from JA to the US Gov.
My question is....
At what point or chain of command would any acceptance of such a telegram/offer put the 1933 Saints in the legality category to own/sell? JA gets a telegram back that says "thank you for your offer" but they turned it down.........what would that imply? >>
I doubt if they would bother to even respond to such a low ball offer. >>
And to think it all started when someone didn't return or took $200.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>The coins belong in the Smithsonian... why should these historical objects be enjoyed only by a handful of millionaires instead of every American?
After all, the coins belong to the American people. >>
I believe they already have one. How many do THEY need? Or do you want them sealed into a box and thrown into Smithsonian storage to be lost for 100 years? You know like bigfoot and the martian alien, and Elvis.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>The coins belong in the Smithsonian... why should these historical objects be enjoyed only by a handful of millionaires instead of every American?
After all, the coins belong to the American people. >>
The Smithsonian Institute already has two examples. Certainly there are at least 10 worthy museums that would welcome an example. I'd love to see one in the ANA's museum.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The coins belong in the Smithsonian... why should these historical objects be enjoyed only by a handful of millionaires instead of every American?
After all, the coins belong to the American people. >>
The Smithsonian Institute already has two examples. Certainly there are at least 10 worthy museums that would welcome an example. I'd love to see one in the ANA's museum. >>
I would go along with that. Perhaps they can be strategically distributed to museums across the country so they're accessible to everyone.
<< <i>The coins belong in the Smithsonian... why should these historical objects be enjoyed only by a handful of millionaires instead of every American? After all, the coins belong to the American people. >>
Well, in the past, many of those millionaires have offered and indeed lent their coins to various museums to display to the public. The problem is most museums don't seem to get excited about such small objects. In fact, many museums are often more happy to sell such kind of coins.
These would require pretty good security which might be expensive for a small museum. Maybe the Philadelphia Mint could display one. Sell the rest and put it toward the US debt.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I do not recall the specific wording of the paperwork issued by the government in connection with the sale of the Fenton coin. This topic has been covered in prior threads. However, I understand that the government communicated (represented, told, stated, conveyed, etc....) to the buyer that the coin sold at the auction would be the only 1933 double eagle that can be privately owned.
Now whether or not what the government communicated to the buyer would be something that the buyer could base a lawsuit on if other 1933 double eagles were later made capable of private ownership, I would think it unlikely that the government (if the final outcome of the Langbord case is that the ten coins are determined to be owned by the government) would choose to sell any of the ten coins. >>
But if, as I have been suggesting for years, the government itself bought the Fenton coin, it can reveal that fact, break its promise to itself, and sell all ELEVEN coins!!!!!
TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
They should sell lottery tickets for them. On your tax return there is a question asking if you would like to donate to the presidential election fund. They could put another box on there asking if you like to purchase a chance at winning a couple million dollar coin for $100. I would deffinately do it.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
>The coins belong in the Smithsonian... why should these historical objects be enjoyed only by a handful of millionaires instead of every American? > >After all, the coins belong to the American people.
Because the handful of millionaires paid for them (exchanged their gold for the government's gold)? Because the US government didn't care about the historical objects and just wanted to destroy them?
Why don't we just kill all the millionaires and nationalize their assets? They shouldn't get to enjoy anything we can't enjoy.
<< <i>They should sell lottery tickets for them. On your tax return there is a question asking if you would like to donate to the presidential election fund. They could put another box on there asking if you like to purchase a chance at winning a couple million dollar coin for $100. I would deffinately do it. >>
Sounds like a good idea to me. Ten chances over ten years. Count me in for an extra $1000 of debt reduction for my chance to win.
i THink the government should melt these babies down and gold plate some state quarters with the gold and then go take on cOIN cOUNTRY, AND some other T.V. coin sellers.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Comments
<< <i>Respectfully, was the comment in the story about reducing the deficit by $20 million a serious attempt to incent the sellers? As the President leads us out of the current financial turmoil, I doubt that $20 million will hit the radar. >>
$20 million here, $20 million there--soon, your talking about real money!
<< <i>Respectfully, was the comment in the story about reducing the deficit by $20 million a serious attempt to incent the sellers? As the President leads us out of the current financial turmoil, I doubt that $20 million will hit the radar. >>
The Government has probably pissed away more than $100 million in the time it would take an average person to read this thread.
<< <i>If nothing else, it might help save the coins from destruction, should the Treasury think to do something (else) stupid. >>
Of course the feds will not accept, they still have to CYA about letting the Fenton coin out as "unique."
Suppose the feds countered at $75.9M???? After all, that is the "market" value. I think CAC might pass at that price.
<< <i>Respectfully, was the comment in the story about reducing the deficit by $20 million a serious attempt to incent the sellers? As the President leads us out of the current financial turmoil, I doubt that $20 million will hit the radar. >>
NO!
Let the bidding begin!
Which is probably what is going to happen at the end.
(Or the fed is going to be the idiots they are and say NO WE ARE GOING TO STORE THESE AS EVIDENCE and have the coins rot away until the fed collapses.)(stupid pride)
"I'd rather see them preserved in the public's hands since you just can't seem to trust the gov't these days."
..just THESE DAYS?
<< <i>First off it should be illegal to melt aka destory our history ie illegal to destroy the 10 Saints or any other. Why have any institution if not to preserve our past. I rather see them preserved in the public's hands since you just can't seem to trust the gov't these days. >>
No one could seriously think that this is anything other than a P.R. move since:
1. the lawsuit is not over (more stuff to happen in the trial court; and probably an appeal) so the issue of who owns the coins has not yet been resolved; and
2. it is unlikely that the government would ever chose to sell the ten coins into the market place (due to the position it has taken all along regarding these coins [they are not legal to own]; and due to the representation made by the government to the purchaser of the Fenton coin).
Not that he wouldn't buy them if the government did say yes, but it won't happen for the reasons already mentioned.
Ha!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
To make the government look better, employ workers in quango jobs, to make the unemployment statistics look better and to win the next election. Same as its always been done in many countries by many governments.
I think he wanted to make many points, most of which have been discussed here. PR? Sure, why not? It's all made with honorable intentions, "let's at least preserve these coins and not melt them, there is great INTEREST in US coins", whatever. Certainly very pro-coin collecting. John cares about the coin community and especially collectors. Anyone who's met him knows that he's deeply committed to maintaing the highest standards the coin world can....if not by making them higher.
He's a pretty smart guy, this Albanese character. Hell, he talks to me everyday!
It will come down to a 23 year old girl with some 'title' saying (and having the authority) ....."OH, these are pretty, lets make a nice exhibit of them and put them in the Smithsonian. "
end of story.
<< <i>I hate to tell you guys this...but these coins and their value means just about nothing to Government agencies.
It will come down to a 23 year old girl with some 'title' saying (and having the authority) ....."OH, these are pretty, lets make a nice exhibit of them and put them in the Smithsonian. "
end of story.
My guess is they store them in a warehouse somewhere out of sight of anyone!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Other than clear title, what representations were made to the purchaser of the Fenton coin?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>No way that happens, 20 mil for the US Gov. is like 20c in my pocket, its basically useless to them and not the best bride. CAC needs to step up the offer to 100 mil to even get the Gov's attention. >>
But wouldn't that be like $1.00 in their pocket?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I think Tiny could make this work. May I be the first to offer a company slogan?
How about "BIG COINS SELL AT TINY AUCTIONS"
SEIZED PROPERTY AUCTIONS
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
My question is....
At what point or chain of command would any acceptance of such a telegram/offer put the 1933 Saints in the legality category to own/sell?
JA gets a telegram back that says "thank you for your offer" but they turned it down.........what would that imply?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Much of my collection would have to go to pay for one of those 1933's.
I do not recall the specific wording of the paperwork issued by the government in connection with the sale of the Fenton coin. This topic has been covered in prior threads. However, I understand that the government communicated (represented, told, stated, conveyed, etc....) to the buyer that the coin sold at the auction would be the only 1933 double eagle that can be privately owned.
Now whether or not what the government communicated to the buyer would be something that the buyer could base a lawsuit on if other 1933 double eagles were later made capable of private ownership, I would think it unlikely that the government (if the final outcome of the Langbord case is that the ten coins are determined to be owned by the government) would choose to sell any of the ten coins.
<< <i>But wouldn't that be like $1.00 in their pocket? >>
A dollar here, and dollar there and before you know it, you will have enough for a $3 bill?
<< <i>Let's call it a telegram from JA to the US Gov.
My question is....
At what point or chain of command would any acceptance of such a telegram/offer put the 1933 Saints in the legality category to own/sell?
JA gets a telegram back that says "thank you for your offer" but they turned it down.........what would that imply? >>
I doubt if they would bother to even respond to such a low ball offer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Good publicity stunt.
These coins have been seen, especially at the Denver ANA where they could be evaluated to the n-th degree. Thus, I find it interesting that the CAC offer is "sight-unseen", and might be more once the coins are examined. Does anyone really think these 10 1933 double eagles still are "sight-unseen"? >>
Was JA even at the Denver ANA? >>
If he wasn't you can bet that NJCoinCrank or others that assist JA did see them. JA could have simply picked up the phone and talked to principals at NGC who no doubt viewed each
coin very closely. And while CAC may be a big deal for many coins. I don't think it's quite as necessary when one is talking about 1804 dollars and 1933 Saints. The NGC grade is
probably close enough for dealing with these rarities. It's not like they're going to have fugly toning on them or be hacked up. Most of these probably grade 63 to 65 and there's
probably good reason to believe that the puttyman did not have visit with these coins.
roadrunner
<< <i>Andy.
I do not recall the specific wording of the paperwork issued by the government in connection with the sale of the Fenton coin. This topic has been covered in prior threads. However, I understand that the government communicated (represented, told, stated, conveyed, etc....) to the buyer that the coin sold at the auction would be the only 1933 double eagle that can be privately owned.
Now whether or not what the government communicated to the buyer would be something that the buyer could base a lawsuit on if other 1933 double eagles were later made capable of private ownership, I would think it unlikely that the government (if the final outcome of the Langbord case is that the ten coins are determined to be owned by the government) would choose to sell any of the ten coins. >>
No - monetized.
<< <i>
<< <i>Let's call it a telegram from JA to the US Gov.
My question is....
At what point or chain of command would any acceptance of such a telegram/offer put the 1933 Saints in the legality category to own/sell?
JA gets a telegram back that says "thank you for your offer" but they turned it down.........what would that imply? >>
I doubt if they would bother to even respond to such a low ball offer. >>
And to think it all started when someone didn't return or took $200.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
After all, the coins belong to the American people.
<< <i>The coins belong in the Smithsonian... why should these historical objects be enjoyed only by a handful of millionaires instead of every American?
After all, the coins belong to the American people. >>
I believe they already have one. How many do THEY need? Or do you want them sealed into a box and thrown into Smithsonian storage to be lost for 100 years? You know like bigfoot and the martian alien, and Elvis.
<< <i>The coins belong in the Smithsonian... why should these historical objects be enjoyed only by a handful of millionaires instead of every American?
After all, the coins belong to the American people. >>
The Smithsonian Institute already has two examples. Certainly there are at least 10 worthy museums that would welcome an example. I'd love to see one in the ANA's museum.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>The coins belong in the Smithsonian... why should these historical objects be enjoyed only by a handful of millionaires instead of every American?
After all, the coins belong to the American people. >>
The Smithsonian Institute already has two examples. Certainly there are at least 10 worthy museums that would welcome an example. I'd love to see one in the ANA's museum. >>
I would go along with that. Perhaps they can be strategically distributed to museums across the country so they're accessible to everyone.
<< <i>The coins belong in the Smithsonian... why should these historical objects be enjoyed only by a handful of millionaires instead of every American? After all, the coins belong to the American people. >>
Well, in the past, many of those millionaires have offered and indeed lent their coins to various museums to display to the public. The problem is most museums don't seem to get excited about such small objects. In fact, many museums are often more happy to sell such kind of coins.
<< <i>A publicity stunt, nothing more. Those coins, if retained by the government, will never be sold. >>
Yes, a publicity stunt, but brilliant. Lots of publicity at no cost.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
March of Time - 27 Centuries in Gold
https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=36590
<< <i>Andy.
I do not recall the specific wording of the paperwork issued by the government in connection with the sale of the Fenton coin. This topic has been covered in prior threads. However, I understand that the government communicated (represented, told, stated, conveyed, etc....) to the buyer that the coin sold at the auction would be the only 1933 double eagle that can be privately owned.
Now whether or not what the government communicated to the buyer would be something that the buyer could base a lawsuit on if other 1933 double eagles were later made capable of private ownership, I would think it unlikely that the government (if the final outcome of the Langbord case is that the ten coins are determined to be owned by the government) would choose to sell any of the ten coins. >>
But if, as I have been suggesting for years, the government itself bought the Fenton coin, it can reveal that fact, break its promise to itself, and sell all ELEVEN coins!!!!!
TD
>
>After all, the coins belong to the American people.
Because the handful of millionaires paid for them (exchanged their gold for the government's gold)?
Because the US government didn't care about the historical objects and just wanted to destroy them?
Why don't we just kill all the millionaires and nationalize their assets? They shouldn't get to enjoy anything we can't enjoy.
Viva la revolution!!!
-Keith
<< <i>They should sell lottery tickets for them. On your tax return there is a question asking if you would like to donate to the presidential election fund. They could put another box on there asking if you like to purchase a chance at winning a couple million dollar coin for $100. I would deffinately do it. >>
Sounds like a good idea to me. Ten chances over ten years. Count me in for an extra $1000 of debt reduction for my chance to win.
Well, here's the solution! (Although I'm quoting from another thread
Melt the 10 coins down and make 5000 miniature 1/100 ounce gold 1933 coins to commemorate this amazing fiasco!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"