There are so many excellent dealers--why don't non-expert collectors use them?
TahoeDale
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Unless you have been collecting rare coins for 30 years or more, and have been tutored properly, a smart collector will continue to rely on a knowledgeable dealer for many of their purchases.
While Stewart doesn't need anyone to tell him how to grade a lincoln, or TDN a Trade dollar, anyone who is putting together a type set can use the help of an expert. Or a seasoned collector of their specialized series.
Not only grading, but market conditions and fair pricing.
I know a little about Barber halves and quarters, MS lib nickels. and early and CBH's. But dated 2 1/2 gold, Gobrecht dollars or twenty cent pieces? Little if anything about the pricing and availability of nice examples.
I read quite often about mistakes that are made by posters on this forum-- and they say it is a learning experience, hopefully not too costly. Why not confer with experts before you spend your hard earned money, as it is not that time consuming and most dealers/experts are very accomodating..
Maybe that is why many new collectors will just buy from the Mint, or only spend less than $200 on a raw coin,.
I still seek the opinion of many dealers, before venturing into a series that I do not regularly collect. And I have not been turned down( for an honest opinion) by one yet.
While Stewart doesn't need anyone to tell him how to grade a lincoln, or TDN a Trade dollar, anyone who is putting together a type set can use the help of an expert. Or a seasoned collector of their specialized series.
Not only grading, but market conditions and fair pricing.
I know a little about Barber halves and quarters, MS lib nickels. and early and CBH's. But dated 2 1/2 gold, Gobrecht dollars or twenty cent pieces? Little if anything about the pricing and availability of nice examples.
I read quite often about mistakes that are made by posters on this forum-- and they say it is a learning experience, hopefully not too costly. Why not confer with experts before you spend your hard earned money, as it is not that time consuming and most dealers/experts are very accomodating..
Maybe that is why many new collectors will just buy from the Mint, or only spend less than $200 on a raw coin,.
I still seek the opinion of many dealers, before venturing into a series that I do not regularly collect. And I have not been turned down( for an honest opinion) by one yet.
TahoeDale
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Are there really many excellent dealers, individuals who combine expert knowledge, ethical business practices, and customer service? I count them in the distinct minority of coin dealers (5-10%)
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Personally the time and money I've spent to develop friendships with a few veteran dealers has enriched my collecting experience ten fold. I cannot calculate the financial reward but their advice has saved me many dollars and made me many dollars. In addition they have offered me some wonderful coins for my collection, their vast numismatic services, and their profession opinions on a wide array of numismatic topics. In return I buy and sell some coins to them, which helps them make some money.
I consider this type of friendship a Win Win; I highly recommend it for beginners through seasoned numismatists.
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Paying more by itself guarantees little because many dealers charge full boat retail prices for their average coins. Walk any large show and I'd guess more than half the dealers will price their coins at full retail to a novice walking the aisles. Are you telling me that half of them are quality dealers? That's like saying half of all coins for sale are "quality coins." Dealers can sense a newbie, and price accordingly.
I will concede that there are more than a few folks that shop for price. As a newbie, that is a dangerous road. A newbie with no connections isn't going to get a bargain price. A fair price tends to be best case and that is if they are lucky. They will find a shark if they are not lucky, and the shark will charge them full price for junk coins, and there are plenty of sharks on any bourse looking for the fresh meat, and like I wrote, dealers can size up the newbies.
/edit to add: On Ebay the sharks predators are even worse, some peddle fake coins, often in fake slabs. Millions of dollars worth of fakes are being moved to novice collections each month. Boy, is that going to be a rude awakening for those buying those fake slabs.
have bought on eBay, Craigslist, some market in Europe or Asia, or from one of the multi page advertisers in Coin World (Select BU
coins for less than a dealer would pay for problem-free AU)
They would never think of buying a car, stocks, jewelry without going through an authorized dealer. Why they think
they can filter out all the bad stuff in the rare coin market without using a dealer has always puzzled me.
Another good reason is that great coins often come TO those dealers on the bourse or by other means. If you want first shot at those coins, you better have a good relationship with the dealer(s).
<< They would never think of buying a car, stocks, jewelry without going through an authorized dealer. Why they think they can filter out all the bad stuff in the rare coin market without using a dealer has always puzzled me. >>
Knowledgeable and authorized are not always the same
Some people are just smarter than others. Personally, I am an idiot with hopes of becoming a moron.
Bingo! Red Tiger nailed it.
There are so many dealer sharks swimming in this pond that the odds finding that one gem are sort of remote if you ask me. In my first 10 yrs in the hobby there must have been a dozen shops I visited in a 50 mile radius of me. There wasn't one that wouldn't take advantage of you. And frankly every one of them took advantage of me at one time or another. Very few of them even really knew a quality unc type if it hit them square between the eyes. I was basically set up for failure dealing with any of them. It wasn't until venturing out into the national scene of dealers that I ran into people that really knew coins and could communicate that. Even so, they still were in the minority. Most collectors will pay a heavy price during those first 10 yrs, especially if they stay local or stick to HSN/QVC.
In looking at the shops I have today surrounding me, I am completely unimpressed with the knowledge they have of higher grade coins, what constitutes damage, cleaning, etc. If not for the slabs it wouldn't be a whole lot better than the conditions that existed from 1975 to 1985. At least today collectors have secure plus and CAC on their side. Today's slabbed holders ensures that one's potential "out the door" loss is generally limited to the next grade down....approx 50% on most coins. Too often I see newer collectors here praising the merits of dealer X or Y, when if anything they should have their guards up.
roadrunner
Perhaps most just aren't interested and are perfectly content with the way their current collecting habits?
In order to get the assistance I am refering to, it may be necessary to be involved in a large way, in the collection process. If your only purchases are generic low priced coins, and you do not plan to spend more than $500 a year, then most of the better dealers will not be available to you.
And if you think you can rely only on what is indicated on the TPG slab, then you are being naive. There are A, B, C and even less quality in almost all grades. In my dealings with the grading services, and discussions with noted experts, many coins in holders are damaged, overgraded by several( not just one) points, and reveal very imperfect surfaces( maybe even doctored!). A few are undergraded, and a large premium is necessary to obtain them.
The best approach to finding the great people in this hobby is meeting them personally. The big shows are the number one place to engage them, and the PCGS Collectors show in Vegas is also a good one-- because it is so small with really active dealers present. And David and Don are there to speak with you one on one.
If any one would like my opinion on the dealers who really try to help, feel free to PM me. I could list them here, but I am sure I would leave many out.
<< <i>Another good reason is that great coins often come TO those dealers on the bourse or by other means. If you want first shot at those coins, you better have a good relationship with the dealer(s). >>
Possibly true, but if you just walk up to a dealer, you are at the back of the line to see the A box.
There are also many "quality" dealers that won't have much time for you if they size you up as a
relatively small fish.
<< <i>
<< <i>Another good reason is that great coins often come TO those dealers on the bourse or by other means. If you want first shot at those coins, you better have a good relationship with the dealer(s). >>
Possibly true, but if you just walk up to a dealer, you are at the back of the line to see the A box.
There are also many "quality" dealers that won't have much time for you if they size you up as a
relatively small fish. >>
Presenting yourself is very important to even get the time of day for many premium items.
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so I can still make a pretty penny when I sell my coins?
eBay makes it plenty easier to turn a profit.
<< <i>The reason is simple---most 'non-expert' collectors do not understand the importance of quality for the grade, and are overly price conscious. They fail to realize that there is no Santa Claus in numismatics, and think that they can routinely find great buys on ebay or by bidding on coins via computer without having someone screen them beforehand. This philosophy of cutting out dealers in order to save money almost always backfires.
Are there really many excellent dealers, individuals who combine expert knowledge, ethical business practices, and customer service? I count them in the distinct minority of coin dealers (5-10%) >>
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
And even if you are not a regular client, most will answer your questions re grading, quality and market pricing, if you ask. You just have to be there to do it.
Andy has said you need to find the "right"dealer, not just a prominent one. But for type collectors, the dealers in the know have experienced so much in all series, and any area they do not know well, they will lead you to the right source.
One other area of expertise that is now used frequently because of the internet: long time collectors of a specialized series. I have spoken freely about any series I have completed, and many others do the same thing. It is all part of the hobby-- passing on information to those that wish/need your experienced eye.
<< <i>There are so many excellent dealers--why don't non-expert collectors use them? >>
There are many possible reasons.
Ego.
Greed.
They don't know who the excellent dealers are - and/or - they don't know who to trust.
They may not even be aware that this forum exists so they don't benefit from the opinions expressed on here about certain dealers.
If you're not an expert collector, how are you supposed to know who the excellent dealers are?
Should that non-expert collector rely on the ANA to tell him/her? The PNG?
I remember, years ago when I first got back into the hobby as an adult, I saw a coin on a dealer's website that I thought was very nice, it was pedigreed to a famous collector I had read about, and it was a "story" coin. I wanted it badly but it was priced at several thousand dollars. I did not know anything about the dealer, and I didn't think I knew enough about the coin to make such a purchase.
At the time I thought any PNG dealer was a good dealer, but the dealer who was offering the coin was not affiliated with the PNG. I threw caution to the wind and bought the coin anyway. I was relieved and delighted that the coin was great in hand and the dealer demonstrated great customer service and knowledge about not only that particular coin, but other coins and aspects of the hobby. In all, it was a great experience that led to me buying many more coins from that dealer who, it turned out, is widely recognized as one of the best in the industry. And I recently sold that coin for a small but nice profit.
I got lucky.
I learned, for example, that being a member of the PNG does not automatically make you a good dealer; and not being a member of PNG does not automatically make you a bad dealer.
<< <i>Possibly true, but if you just walk up to a dealer, you are at the back of the line to see the A box.
There are also many "quality" dealers that won't have much time for you if they size you up as a
relatively small fish. >>
I can agree with this but if you're a stranger that walks up with a wad of $100s and make an offer on a coin worth several thousand dollars you'll have his attention. Money talks.
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<< <i>Most collectors are cheap skates and are always looking for a bargain or "good deal". The best dealers aren't exactly known for selling their coins for less than full retail prices. >>
I agree with this, but to me, a very nice coin with eye appeal and very nice for the grade is worth the full retail. This is something that I've learned through the years as my taste in coins has matured and my financial means have improved. I used to settle for fugly coins because of the cheap price but I would now pay more for the same coin in the same grade with more eye appeal. I don't think I've turned into a coin snob so much than I've learned to lok beyond the grade. I've bought high graded cruddy stuff for cheap and usually ended up disappointed pretty quickly. The coins I bought that have had tremendous eye appeal are the ones I've hung on to for years.
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I am not thin skinned but i have talked to a few of the big dealers and come away less than impressed. To me the first conversation sets the tone. Dealers are like every other business, some customers get better prices and better deals offered than a first timer. They have to dump their less desirable stuff on newbies.
Years ago i was working on Standing Liberty quarters and looked foreward to seeing the big man at the Houston coin show. I went by his table inquiring about a date, they handed me a roll of circulated XF/AU's and said take a pick, all were 500 bucks. The price quoted was almost 2 times the going rate. I was looking for a certified ms64 or 65 of the date and they assumed otherwise. BTW the big man was not at his table at the time, so if he had been there maybe things would have been different.
I used to see Osborn at a lot of the smaller regional shows, he and his wife were always friendly and would take time to help you. I bought a few coins from them over the years but at what i would call strong prices but at least they make you feel good about taking your money.
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If one plans on becoming a coin collector for the long term, it really is a good idea to get to know some trustworthy names. But, most people starting out may not have the budget to feel that they can approach the higher end segments of numismatics. The pond scum end do the coin equivalent of the big purple gorilla in front of the used car lot, with magazine adds that shout as loudly as used car commercials and employ bait-and-switch tactics to boot. It takes time to weed out the crap and, through a series of up-trades, realize that it is better to get one coin you can barely afford with two or three months of saving than a bunch of chotchkeys that are as common as bacterial flora and only slightly less ugly.
Undoubtedly, it's an important consideration but it shouldn't be the first question. That first question reveals a lot about a purchasers pysche.
If price is your paramount consideration, then be happy if you get average merchandise or services.
If you want fabulous merchandise or service, determine a fair price after you ask all the other more important questions.