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Will PCGS regrade OGH (old green holders) without losing the OGH ?
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
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I kind of know the answer to this question but I am trying to get PCGS to change its policy.We all must realize
when we crack a coin out of an old green holder the coin generally diminishes in value if the coin does not upgrade.
With copper coins it also diminisnes viewable stability. Copper in old holders is generally more fungible (saleable).
I hope Don Willis reads this post and agrees with me as to offer this service.
Stewart Blay
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Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
keoj
If PCGS did offer this service, then much of the current perceived desirability of the OGH would evaporate. So even if you got your wish, you wouldn't get your wish.
Eric
<< <i>I don't understand this question......so the fundamental assertion here is that PCGS grading standards are not consistent? By the color of the holder, there is a valuation change? Or is the point that one that perceived valuation by the market is that different holders represent different grading standards?
keoj >>
An OGH can indicate that the coin in the holder is stable, and looks now like it did when it was graded 15+ years ago. That's important to some people buying copper coins that are in RD holders.
Once PCGS figures out a way to evaluate and upgrade a coin still residing in an OGH the Mystique GOES OUT THE WINDOW and all of a sudden if an OGH appears without the "regrade sticker' on it it is assumed that it did NOT upgrade and there goes your OGH premium.
Does the OP really want that??
<< <i>I don't understand this question......so the fundamental assertion here is that PCGS grading standards are not consistent? By the color of the holder, there is a valuation change? Or is the point that one that perceived valuation by the market is that different holders represent different grading standards?
keoj >>
I don't think the assertion is that PCGS grading standards are inconsistent but rather that grading standards* have changed/evolved over time in response to the market. That's true with all the major TPGs. If PCGS starts reholding coins using their "classic" labels, then I'll send it a bunch of cheapie coins to be put into doilies and sell them to Jeff! Woo hoo!
*Yes, I appreciate the irony of a "standard" changing over time, but that's the reality.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
and if it aint well enough, crack it out, and take your chance
<< <i>... Copper in old holders is generally more fungible (saleable).
Stewart Blay >>
Shares of IBM stock are fungible. One may be substituted for another without any effect on value. The essential quality of fungibility is precisely that of qualitative differences being discounted to the point of statistical irrelevance. Interchangeability/uniformity creates a highly efficient market.
Fungible items are indeed more saleable. They carry no premium. This seems totally the opposite of how copper coins are now or ever would be treated.
G+ Morgans are fungible as long as they aren't damaged.
Copper coins? I don't think so.
Green insert? Rattler? Didn't get your gold sticker? Roll the dice. One bite at the apple. The casino is open. You knew the rules when you sat down at the table.
CCU's analysis rings true. Your plan destroys the value of the green insert. Let yourself become immersed in the Zen of "even if you got your wish.."
Crackout/upgrader's thoughts;
"Used to be, I might figure a green insert hadn't been tried in 10 years. So there was more opportunity value based on 'freshness" in the grading room. Now, who can say when the last time was that they looked at it."
You might also consider where PCGS get the same paper/die batchs as were used to produce a insert lable matching one last made 10+ years ago. Hologram/logo matching the time period?
Rather than destroy value immediately, a "graceful landing" might be achieved.
I think your needs, and those of the Market, might be best served by PCGS offering a "OGH Legacy Service".
$50 fee per coin. Now you can still prove the coin hasn't been messed with in at least 10 years. Different shade of green perhaps....
<< <i>Ah yes, the "cake and eat it too" strategy.
If PCGS did offer this service, then much of the current perceived desirability of the OGH would evaporate. So even if you got your wish, you wouldn't get your wish. >>
You took the words right out of my mouth.
EAC 6024
<< <i>
<< <i>Ah yes, the "cake and eat it too" strategy.
If PCGS did offer this service, then much of the current perceived desirability of the OGH would evaporate. So even if you got your wish, you wouldn't get your wish. >>
You took the words right out of my mouth. >>
Let's give the TPG some monetary incentive, and they may come up with a way to meet your request.
As we know, today PCGS will crack out the coin from the OGH before reviewing the grade. For a fee to be determined( perhaps $200) they will make an exception for OGH's and review the coin in the holder to see if is a possible upgrade.
Then the submitter will be advised of the new grade-- same, or + or a point higher.
Only after the result is made known does the submitter make the decision
Similar to crossovers, for an additional fee, review can be accomplished the same way-- instead of crossing at grade, minimum grade can be stated, like + or better, before it is cracked out.
I see only one big problem-- not enough submissions to be cost effective.
I would not even think of a new sticker
<< <i>I kind of know the answer to this question but I am trying to get PCGS to change its policy.We all must realize
when we crack a coin out of an old green holder the coin generally diminishes in value if the coin does not upgrade.
With copper coins it also diminisnes viewable stability. Copper in old holders is generally more fungible (saleable).
I hope Don Willis reads this post and agrees with me as to offer this service.
Stewart Blay >>
What exactly do you want PCGS to do? Place a sticker over the old holder if it upgrades? Start using old Green inserts again and give you a new insert? I can see it now.... new Hot pink PCGS Beans on OHG's.
<< <i>Ah yes, the "cake and eat it too" strategy.
If PCGS did offer this service, then much of the current perceived desirability of the OGH would evaporate. So even if you got your wish, you wouldn't get your wish. >>
This
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't understand this question......so the fundamental assertion here is that PCGS grading standards are not consistent? By the color of the holder, there is a valuation change? Or is the point that one that perceived valuation by the market is that different holders represent different grading standards?
keoj >>
I don't think the assertion is that PCGS grading standards are inconsistent but rather that grading standards* have changed/evolved over time in response to the market. That's true with all the major TPGs. If PCGS starts reholding coins using their "classic" labels, then I'll send it a bunch of cheapie coins to be put into doilies and sell them to Jeff! Woo hoo!
*Yes, I appreciate the irony of a "standard" changing over time, but that's the reality. >>
I think they would only re-doily an original doily!!!
<< <i>Ah yes, the "cake and eat it too" strategy.
If PCGS did offer this service, then much of the current perceived desirability of the OGH would evaporate. So even if you got your wish, you wouldn't get your wish. >>
Perhaps they could use a different shade of green to identify regraded OGH coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I admit, I'll only buy red lincolns in OGHs
<< <i>If the holder says 65 and you think it's a solid lock 66, sell it as a 66. If the buyer agrees, everybody is happy. It shouldn't be a grade game deal. No reason to crack the copper out. Sell it for what it actually is in today's market. And retain the OGH.
I admit, I'll only buy red lincolns in OGHs
What if you also care about the "Set Registy"? You are missing that potentially tie-breaking "point".
Also, what if you die, your estate likely will lose a considerable amount of value if all your coins are "secret upgrades" vs. properly graded?
Also, what if you are selling at auction and someone is specifically looking for a 66 and the search doesn't find your "secret 66"?
<< <i>
<< <i>I kind of know the answer to this question but I am trying to get PCGS to change its policy.We all must realize
when we crack a coin out of an old green holder the coin generally diminishes in value if the coin does not upgrade.
With copper coins it also diminisnes viewable stability. Copper in old holders is generally more fungible (saleable).
I hope Don Willis reads this post and agrees with me as to offer this service.
Stewart Blay >>
What exactly do you want PCGS to do? Place a sticker over the old holder if it upgrades? Start using old Green inserts again and give you a new insert? I can see it now.... new Hot pink PCGS Beans on OHG's. >>
If it doesn't upgrade, I want them to return to me exactly what I sent in. I know they can remove the insert without damage, so it comes down to whether or not they want to go to the trouble of re-issuing older style holders. What if I wanted a simple reholder? It is a rare American business that is willing to deviate from the norm anymore.
<< <i>Most of the mystique of the OGH is the potential of upgrade that lurks there.
Once PCGS figures out a way to evaluate and upgrade a coin still residing in an OGH the Mystique GOES OUT THE WINDOW and all of a sudden if an OGH appears without the "regrade sticker' on it it is assumed that it did NOT upgrade and there goes your OGH premium.
Does the OP really want that?? >>
Everyone else [collectors or dealers] who sees the coin after it leaves PCGS has to evaluate the coin in the holder, so why should PCGS be the only one who gets another risk-free shot to see it out of the holder. Why can't they offer a review in the holder with some sort of validation similar to a green bean. I can see why they might want to crack a competitor's coin. It would be interesting to see how much change of mind there would be if you gave them a holdered coin, got an opinion then sent the same coin in raw a month or two later.
JJ
Every time a coin is cracked out of its holder one stands the risk of damage to a coin whether airborn or through carelessness. Accidents do happen .
It seems many of the respondees on this forum do not understand this fact. Most of the time when I sell a coin it is based on MY perceived grade and value.
There are many of the top dealers and collectors who realize this and buy the coin regardless of the price and PCGS grade. There is presently such a wide gap between coins of a specific date and grade
that the PCGS price guide is out of whack to say the least.
Stewart
You're copper, I'm gold...that said, many times I have seen four coins all graded the same, and not one would get the same grade as the others. There's PQ, fairly grade, questionable (by a buyer's standard, not PCGS'), and simply not worthy, among other issues.
Price guides are worthless when you have great coins...you know it and you count on the experts on knowing it. And luckily..it's to your advantage about 85% of the time. I know that the price guide was irrelevant when I've sold about 80% of my better coins. I know it also, from when I played the PCGS "gimme a 10K prize" World Series contest!
So Stewart, don't fret. If you sell before you die you'll get wonderful prices. Blow out prices. You know it.
It's ok. I had a rather unique style in my most polific days.
<< <i>Ah yes, the "cake and eat it too" strategy.
If PCGS did offer this service, then much of the current perceived desirability of the OGH would evaporate. So even if you got your wish, you wouldn't get your wish. >>
The above quote is brilliant.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>
I had a rather unique style in my most polific days.
Well I think that this qualifies as the grandest understatement of the past decade for the board
Forum AdministratorPSA & PSA/DNA ForumModerator@collectors.com | p 800.325.1121 | PSAcard.com
Come on Lane . . I have SOME standards!
Well . . . . . . . . they would be minimal concerning Doilies.
Drunner
I understand that you really do not want the copper coin removed from the holder it is in, unless it upgrades?
Or, under no circumstances do you want it cracked out, because of the long standing enclosed condition?
Perhaps a separate price guide for Blay copper in OGH's? I'm sure David would love to take the additional time to do this for you
<< <i>
<< <i>
I had a rather unique style in my most polific days.
Well I think that this qualifies as the grandest understatement of the past decade for the board
If I were you I'd exchange that paper face mask for hazmat headgear.
Then again, I was awarded "One Of The Five Greatest Forum Masters Of All Time" by Guy Yocum. That counts!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
I had a rather unique style in my most polific days.
Well I think that this qualifies as the grandest understatement of the past decade for the board
If I were you I'd exchange that paper face mask for hazmat headgear.
Then again, I was awarded "One Of The Five Greatest Forum Masters Of All Time" by Guy Yocum. That counts!
Seems I missed your hay day
Camelot
<< <i>Have you ever matriculated or perambulated in public?
I perambulated in Chicago for Central States. I hate the traffic there!
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>Yes, I'd like to get a lot of OGHs reholdered (no regrade) and keep the old label. My Avatar is one. Even on a reholder they print a new blue label with the same number. A change to just reuse the old green label in a new holder would make me happy. --jerry >>
Re-use old label in a new holder conjures up visions of fakes/counterfeit unless PCGS can incorporate some sort of proof of authenticity. If they would ever agree to reholder with the original label, they would also need the exact same holder that was used at that time.
There is only ONE slab I have ever seen in the old later green OGH slab that PCGS started to use the blue colored label at one of the shows.
This is NOT the same as the somewhat scarce but available PCGS 4.0 slab which often turned blue (or yellow).
<< <i>Ah yes, the "cake and eat it too" strategy.
If PCGS did offer this service, then much of the current perceived desirability of the OGH would evaporate. So even if you got your wish, you wouldn't get your wish. >>
He nailed it. Old labels on new holders should not happen and will not happen.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Truly a bad idea.
The whole reason I like old labels is because the
coins held within have been there long enough
to be stable, and aren't apt to get ugly over time
because of some amateurish attempt to "improve"
the surfaces.
What is suggested here would remove that
assurance.
For that reason, I like the fact that PCGS changes
their label design periodically.
And that's all I have to say about that.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
<< <i>Stew: Not only is your not possible because there are so many different old style PCGS slabs no longer used today from the rattler to the Regency to the double shelled PCGS 2.0 to PCGS 3.5 slabs.
There is only ONE slab I have ever seen in the old later green OGH slab that PCGS started to use the blue colored label at one of the shows.
This is NOT the same as the somewhat scarce but available PCGS 4.0 slab which often turned blue (or yellow). >>
Are the two pieces of plastic being used to make the slabs today, the exact same two pieces of plastic that were being used after PCGS stopped doing the 3.5s?
I wouldn't expect them to reholder anything 3.5 or earlier in the respective old slabs.