You know in this conversation, and the whole thread....lets keep one thing in Perspective, Mickey doesn't have his money back in his hand yet. I am sure this will work out, but I will be honest with you...With Paypal involved...I would be scared to death, the RICO A$$wipes could choose to change the rules on you NOW!!!!!!
Seriously
Neil >>
Spot on! Really, like the Toni's Cards example, if someone has PSA 9 star cards, with ebay, Google, etc, they are gonna know in minutes what they are worth, and nobody is gonna sell them on ebay for 1/2 price...and I mean nobody! They might walk into Pawn Stars and sell them like that for immediate cash so they can quickly pay some back due rent or a car payment, but they're simply not going to do it on ebay.
I'm not saying there still aren't good or great deals to be found on ebay, but it usually involves raw cards or wrongly titled cards, not a sale such as this on high grade PSA 9 cards - heck, I think Pawn Stars would have likely paid more than the ebay selling price for cards such as these.
The scammer threw out the hook and the OP bit, and we can all learn from it. In any event, I do believe the OP will get his money back and hopefully we won't get fooled again.
steve - suppose it's a case where SMR is way low on the cards, as shown by VCP, and the seller lists them with BINs for 120% of SMR. Would you still assume that it's a scam as opposed to a seller who doesn't know better than to rely on SMR?
<< <i>steve - suppose it's a case where SMR is way low on the cards, as shown by VCP, and the seller lists them with BINs for 120% of SMR. Would you still assume that it's a scam as opposed to a seller who doesn't know better than to rely on SMR?
Nick >>
Nick - Each situation would have to be looked at differently. Frankly, in my opinion, if a seller is legit but happens to be naive about baseball card values and may not even be aware of SMR and VCP, there is no doubt that they would likely first look at what the cards have sold for on ebay and the internet, then of course they would perhaps contact B&M card shops and/or internet sellers for their offers. I already mentioned, if they were legit, and truly desperate for quick cash because of possibly being evicted and homeless, or getting their car repossessed, I could see them going into a pawn shop or a B&M card shop and selling the cards for those low prices for quick cash.
If a legit naive seller did decide to sell an item like this on ebay, they are simply going to list it auction style so they can achieve maximum value...they are not going to list it "best offer" like this scammer seller listed this item. Yes, a scammer could of course also list it auction style and wait for the auction to end, but ebay isn't new and scammers know that when listing expensive items like this auction style, it gets discussed and scrutinized in public forums such as this, and private emails amongst collectors, and could very possibly/probably be pulled by ebay, whereby the buy it now, best offer often is under the radar because a fish like the OP in this example, bites on it quickly without thinking it thru because of his greed for a deal "too good to be true."
Ya gotta remember, I think many of these clever scammers like this one in this thread, in my opinion, probably aren't newbie scammers...they have likely done this countless other times, and they are skilled at it. Until law enforcement begins going after these ebay scammers as arch-criminals involved in organized crime, and start handing out some long prison sentences, then these ebay thieves will only become more emboldened.
I opened a case on Ebay for the 1st card and it was closed in less than an hour because seller refunded the money. She also refunded the money for the 2nd card..............although it says pending until the 7th on the refund. EBAY automatically closes the case. I was a little surprised with the case closed and the "pending". I'm assuming the "pending" is just standard for PAYPAL. Seller was not very happy saying I can't believe you opened a case after we talked. I told her I was definately opening a case. I also left negative feedback. I will update the feedback with refund received after the "pending" is over. She called after I had opened the case and she was not happy; but never got out of line. She said that she had called her local police about the situation. One thing she did say that disturbed me and spoke to her knowledge of a scam- she said that she had to take my word for it that I never received the cards because she shipped them and they show delivered.....but to a wrong address****** I thought this was an odd comment. So this is nearing an end- hopefully. Thanks for everyone's comments and support with this.
I saw the neg from yesterday, and I'm glad you had the stones to leave a solid neg.
Frankly, I hate it when a few others on here sometimes beatch & moan about an ebay seller and scam transaction, and for whatever reason don't even leave a neg...to warn others about the scammer, because in my view that's what it's all about...helping each other out with good information about the hobby to avoid pitfalls...and a neg helps point out rat sellers such as this.
About the seller - I think your promptness about the situation made her suddenly become "nice" as she probably sensed you were someone who wasn't to be F*ed with - perhaps your phone call did more good than I initially thought. She probably not only feared something with ebay, I'm sure she feared anyone contacting the police and investigating her and perhaps finding out more or much more about her "activities."
<< <i>the greater problem is: the scans still exist, the scammers still exist and ebay still exists....stir this all up in a pot and you get Redundant Stew.
good luck to the next not-so-well-informed wealthmonger who never heard of this place. >>
///////////////////////////////////
Yup.
That will always be our challenge: How do we touch the folks that don't know about this place?
Since JO's advice - Never Get Cheated - has worked so well for the folks it has touched, it needs to find a way to touch more folks.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>I opened a case on Ebay for the 1st card and it was closed in less than an hour because seller refunded the money. She also refunded the money for the 2nd card..............although it says pending until the 7th on the refund. EBAY automatically closes the case. I was a little surprised with the case closed and the "pending". I'm assuming the "pending" is just standard for PAYPAL. Seller was not very happy saying I can't believe you opened a case after we talked. I told her I was definately opening a case. I also left negative feedback. I will update the feedback with refund received after the "pending" is over. She called after I had opened the case and she was not happy; but never got out of line. She said that she had called her local police about the situation. One thing she did say that disturbed me and spoke to her knowledge of a scam- she said that she had to take my word for it that I never received the cards because she shipped them and they show delivered.....but to a wrong address****** I thought this was an odd comment. So this is nearing an end- hopefully. Thanks for everyone's comments and support with this.
Mickey71 >>
This got me thinking like a scammer, and it made me realize there's still a huge loophole in PayPal buyer protection. The refund for the first card was processed instantly because the seller had the funds available in her PayPal balance. The refund for the second card is pending because the seller had to transfer money in from a checking account to cover the refund. Effectively, this second refund is being processed the same way as an e-check going from the crooked seller back to the buyer. Once it clears, IF it clears, the buyer gets the money and the seller gets recognized for having issued a refund through the proper channel (i.e., reversing the original payment, not sending a new "payment" as a refund) and everything is ok.
The problem is that PayPal has already closed the dispute case without waiting for the refund e-check to clear. If the seller has insufficient funds in her checking account, she'll likely be charged a bounced check fee by her bank, but that's typically only $30-40 at most banks, and less at credit unions. The buyer will not receive any money from the refund. PayPal will consider the dispute case closed. Ebay will not allow a dispute to be opened because a PayPal dispute has already been opened (you get to pick one or the other, not both, and it doesn't matter whether the first one is still open or closed - once the first dispute is opened, you cannot open one at the other venue).
So where does this leave us if the refund e-check bounces? The answer is that a real credit card chargeback is now the buyer's last recourse. ALWAYS PAY WITH A REAL CREDIT CARD NO MATTER WHAT.
CrazyMind, The whole thing is pending until the 7th. I'm not sure if what you are saying is correct. It says nothing about e-check and all of that. Although, I am surprised a case would close on something pending.
If two different claims are filed, they are considered separately.
"Closing" one claim has no impact on the second claim.
......................
PP will reimburse the money to the buyer REGARDLESS of whether or not the THIEF has any money in either their PP-account or their checking account.
PP then seeks recourse against the THIEF. It is not a slamdunk for PP to recover the money, but they try REALLY hard. Such efforts usually succeed against amateurs, but sophisticated crooks are a tough nut to crack.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>CrazyMind, The whole thing is pending until the 7th. I'm not sure if what you are saying is correct. It says nothing about e-check and all of that. Although, I am surprised a case would close on something pending.
Mickey71 >>
You wouldn't see anything about an e-check in your account since you're the buyer. All I'm saying is that the refund is processed electronically the same way as an e-check going from the other person to you. All they're really doing is combining a two-step process into one, i.e., the "add funds from a bank account" and "refund payment" procedures are combined into a single transaction.
<< <i>If two different claims are filed, they are considered separately.
"Closing" one claim has no impact on the second claim.
......................
PP will reimburse the money to the buyer REGARDLESS of whether or not the THIEF has any money in either their PP-account or their checking account.
PP then seeks recourse against the THIEF. It is not a slamdunk for PP to recover the money, but they try REALLY hard. Such efforts usually succeed against amateurs, but sophisticated crooks are a tough nut to crack. >>
When you talk about two different claims, you're talking about different items - that is, one claim for each item. What I was trying to point out is that for each item, once a PayPal dispute is opened, the buyer cannot then open an ebay dispute on the same item, and vice versa.
The problem, or loophole, if you will, is that PayPal has closed the case for the second card not because they sided with the buyer in the dispute and refunded his money, but because the seller supposedly conceded she was wrong and issued a refund. Only problem is, refund ain't cleared yet and probably won't. This was the part of Mickey's post I was referring to: "She also refunded the money for the 2nd card..............although it says pending until the 7th on the refund. EBAY automatically closes the case."
Since the case has been closed, PayPal is not going to lift a finger for Mickey if anything goes wrong with the processing of this refund that is pending until June 7. All the seller has to do is pay her bank's insufficient funds fee, and she gets to keep the bulk of the money. There's the loophole. The only recourse for the buyer then is a traditional credit card chargeback.
I did not open the 2nd case because she refunded the money. I only opened the case for the 1st card because I purchased on different dates. She refunded both cards.
The seller was questioning me as to why I left negative feedback. I had to think about it for a minute...maybe because it was fraud...also using the post office to commit mail fraud. I think I'll just pick one as to why I would leave negative feedback.
The refund is pending until the 7th. Honestly, I would have left 100 negative feedbacks if I could....before and after the refund. Others who have purchased have not grabbed their nuts and left appropriate feedback.
Comments
<< <i>Evening,
You know in this conversation, and the whole thread....lets keep one thing in Perspective, Mickey doesn't have his money back in his hand yet. I am sure this will work out, but I will be honest with you...With Paypal involved...I would be scared to death, the RICO A$$wipes could choose to change the rules on you NOW!!!!!!
Seriously
Neil >>
Spot on! Really, like the Toni's Cards example, if someone has PSA 9 star cards, with ebay, Google, etc, they are gonna know in minutes what they are worth, and nobody is gonna sell them on ebay for 1/2 price...and I mean nobody! They might walk into Pawn Stars and sell them like that for immediate cash so they can quickly pay some back due rent or a car payment, but they're simply not going to do it on ebay.
I'm not saying there still aren't good or great deals to be found on ebay, but it usually involves raw cards or wrongly titled cards, not a sale such as this on high grade PSA 9 cards - heck, I think Pawn Stars would have likely paid more than the ebay selling price for cards such as these.
The scammer threw out the hook and the OP bit, and we can all learn from it. In any event, I do believe the OP will get his money back and hopefully we won't get fooled again.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>steve - suppose it's a case where SMR is way low on the cards, as shown by VCP, and the seller lists them with BINs for 120% of SMR. Would you still assume that it's a scam as opposed to a seller who doesn't know better than to rely on SMR?
Nick >>
Nick - Each situation would have to be looked at differently. Frankly, in my opinion, if a seller is legit but happens to be naive about baseball card values and may not even be aware of SMR and VCP, there is no doubt that they would likely first look at what the cards have sold for on ebay and the internet, then of course they would perhaps contact B&M card shops and/or internet sellers for their offers. I already mentioned, if they were legit, and truly desperate for quick cash because of possibly being evicted and homeless, or getting their car repossessed, I could see them going into a pawn shop or a B&M card shop and selling the cards for those low prices for quick cash.
If a legit naive seller did decide to sell an item like this on ebay, they are simply going to list it auction style so they can achieve maximum value...they are not going to list it "best offer" like this scammer seller listed this item. Yes, a scammer could of course also list it auction style and wait for the auction to end, but ebay isn't new and scammers know that when listing expensive items like this auction style, it gets discussed and scrutinized in public forums such as this, and private emails amongst collectors, and could very possibly/probably be pulled by ebay, whereby the buy it now, best offer often is under the radar because a fish like the OP in this example, bites on it quickly without thinking it thru because of his greed for a deal "too good to be true."
Ya gotta remember, I think many of these clever scammers like this one in this thread, in my opinion, probably aren't newbie scammers...they have likely done this countless other times, and they are skilled at it. Until law enforcement begins going after these ebay scammers as arch-criminals involved in organized crime, and start handing out some long prison sentences, then these ebay thieves will only become more emboldened.
Mickey71
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Frankly, I hate it when a few others on here sometimes beatch & moan about an ebay seller and scam transaction, and for whatever reason don't even leave a neg...to warn others about the scammer, because in my view that's what it's all about...helping each other out with good information about the hobby to avoid pitfalls...and a neg helps point out rat sellers such as this.
About the seller - I think your promptness about the situation made her suddenly become "nice" as she probably sensed you were someone who wasn't to be F*ed with - perhaps your phone call did more good than I initially thought. She probably not only feared something with ebay, I'm sure she feared anyone contacting the police and investigating her and perhaps finding out more or much more about her "activities."
good luck to the next not-so-well-informed wealthmonger who never heard of this place.
<< <i> She said that she had called her local police about the situation. .. >>
Tell her that you want to follow up with the police as well and ask her for the name/number of the police officer.
IMO, if she gives it, she's for real. If she stalls, she's not.
<< <i>
<< <i> She said that she had called her local police about the situation. .. >>
Tell her that you want to follow up with the police as well and ask her for the name/number of the police officer.
IMO, if she gives it, she's for real. If she stalls, she's not. >>
I just checked the Bodog website...the odds are 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1 that she actually "called her local police. LOL
<< <i>the greater problem is: the scans still exist, the scammers still exist and ebay still exists....stir this all up in a pot and you get Redundant Stew.
good luck to the next not-so-well-informed wealthmonger who never heard of this place.
///////////////////////////////////
Yup.
That will always be our challenge: How do we touch the folks that don't
know about this place?
Since JO's advice - Never Get Cheated - has worked so well for the
folks it has touched, it needs to find a way to touch more folks.
<< <i>I opened a case on Ebay for the 1st card and it was closed in less than an hour because seller refunded the money. She also refunded the money for the 2nd card..............although it says pending until the 7th on the refund. EBAY automatically closes the case. I was a little surprised with the case closed and the "pending". I'm assuming the "pending" is just standard for PAYPAL. Seller was not very happy saying I can't believe you opened a case after we talked. I told her I was definately opening a case. I also left negative feedback. I will update the feedback with refund received after the "pending" is over. She called after I had opened the case and she was not happy; but never got out of line. She said that she had called her local police about the situation. One thing she did say that disturbed me and spoke to her knowledge of a scam- she said that she had to take my word for it that I never received the cards because she shipped them and they show delivered.....but to a wrong address****** I thought this was an odd comment. So this is nearing an end- hopefully. Thanks for everyone's comments and support with this.
Mickey71 >>
This got me thinking like a scammer, and it made me realize there's still a huge loophole in PayPal buyer protection. The refund for the first card was processed instantly because the seller had the funds available in her PayPal balance. The refund for the second card is pending because the seller had to transfer money in from a checking account to cover the refund. Effectively, this second refund is being processed the same way as an e-check going from the crooked seller back to the buyer. Once it clears, IF it clears, the buyer gets the money and the seller gets recognized for having issued a refund through the proper channel (i.e., reversing the original payment, not sending a new "payment" as a refund) and everything is ok.
The problem is that PayPal has already closed the dispute case without waiting for the refund e-check to clear. If the seller has insufficient funds in her checking account, she'll likely be charged a bounced check fee by her bank, but that's typically only $30-40 at most banks, and less at credit unions. The buyer will not receive any money from the refund. PayPal will consider the dispute case closed. Ebay will not allow a dispute to be opened because a PayPal dispute has already been opened (you get to pick one or the other, not both, and it doesn't matter whether the first one is still open or closed - once the first dispute is opened, you cannot open one at the other venue).
So where does this leave us if the refund e-check bounces? The answer is that a real credit card chargeback is now the buyer's last recourse. ALWAYS PAY WITH A REAL CREDIT CARD NO MATTER WHAT.
The whole thing is pending until the 7th. I'm not sure if what you are saying is correct. It says nothing about e-check and all of that. Although, I am surprised a case would close on something pending.
Mickey71
If two different claims are filed, they are considered separately.
"Closing" one claim has no impact on the second claim.
......................
PP will reimburse the money to the buyer REGARDLESS of whether
or not the THIEF has any money in either their PP-account or their
checking account.
PP then seeks recourse against the THIEF. It is not a slamdunk for
PP to recover the money, but they try REALLY hard. Such efforts
usually succeed against amateurs, but sophisticated crooks are a
tough nut to crack.
<< <i>CrazyMind,
The whole thing is pending until the 7th. I'm not sure if what you are saying is correct. It says nothing about e-check and all of that. Although, I am surprised a case would close on something pending.
Mickey71 >>
You wouldn't see anything about an e-check in your account since you're the buyer. All I'm saying is that the refund is processed electronically the same way as an e-check going from the other person to you. All they're really doing is combining a two-step process into one, i.e., the "add funds from a bank account" and "refund payment" procedures are combined into a single transaction.
<< <i>If two different claims are filed, they are considered separately.
"Closing" one claim has no impact on the second claim.
......................
PP will reimburse the money to the buyer REGARDLESS of whether
or not the THIEF has any money in either their PP-account or their
checking account.
PP then seeks recourse against the THIEF. It is not a slamdunk for
PP to recover the money, but they try REALLY hard. Such efforts
usually succeed against amateurs, but sophisticated crooks are a
tough nut to crack. >>
When you talk about two different claims, you're talking about different items - that is, one claim for each item. What I was trying to point out is that for each item, once a PayPal dispute is opened, the buyer cannot then open an ebay dispute on the same item, and vice versa.
The problem, or loophole, if you will, is that PayPal has closed the case for the second card not because they sided with the buyer in the dispute and refunded his money, but because the seller supposedly conceded she was wrong and issued a refund. Only problem is, refund ain't cleared yet and probably won't. This was the part of Mickey's post I was referring to: "She also refunded the money for the 2nd card..............although it says pending until the 7th on the refund. EBAY automatically closes the case."
Since the case has been closed, PayPal is not going to lift a finger for Mickey if anything goes wrong with the processing of this refund that is pending until June 7. All the seller has to do is pay her bank's insufficient funds fee, and she gets to keep the bulk of the money. There's the loophole. The only recourse for the buyer then is a traditional credit card chargeback.
I don't understand your question. If a transaction is terrible you should leave negative feedback.
I have no problem with you leaving feedback.