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NGC MS-69 grading standards
jmski52
Posts: 23,225 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just bought a 1/10th oz. Plat from a forum member that was slabbed by NGC as MS-69. The encapsulated coin is smudged, has black debris on the face, several small spots that look like carbon spots on copper, and worst of all - a set of coin edge marks right on the cheek.
I have no issue with the forum member.
Does NGC actually have any grading standards? Or, are they simply so lax in their MS-69 classification for bullion coins that a similarly-graded Franklin Half would be an MS-63?
I have no issue with the forum member.
Does NGC actually have any grading standards? Or, are they simply so lax in their MS-69 classification for bullion coins that a similarly-graded Franklin Half would be an MS-63?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I knew it would happen.
I knew it would happen.
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This is exactly the point I made when I first joined the forum about sight-unseen markets built around third party grading.
I suspect for bullion it's... "Is it perfect?" if yes it's MS70... if no it's MS69.
That's my question. I'm trying to make a verifiable determination. I'm not sure why bullion would be handled differently. It's a paid service, right?
we are not allowed on here to say what we REALLY feel about NGC
I am trying to ask for the factual information and not how ya'll feel about it, because I think it's a valid concern.
I knew it would happen.
However, this forum, while a great sounding board....is not what will make this right. Id contact the upper management ATS and arrange to send the piece to them for inspection.
<< <i>I was looking for real world feedback, because a coin like the one I just bought does impact my future buying decisions - especially sight-unseen.
This is exactly the point I made when I first joined the forum about sight-unseen markets built around third party grading.
I suspect for bullion it's... "Is it perfect?" if yes it's MS70... if no it's MS69.
That's my question. I'm trying to make a verifiable determination. I'm not sure why bullion would be handled differently. It's a paid service, right?
we are not allowed on here to say what we REALLY feel about NGC
I am trying to ask for the factual information and not how ya'll feel about it, because I think it's a valid concern.
A valid concern that has lead to many knowledgeable numismatists being removed from this forum. Tread lightly
In general, I have found PCGS MS69 and MS70 are preferable to NGC. NGC 70, except for rare dates, trades like bullion plus a somewhat larger premium than MS69. Only PCGS MS70 trades a what you would think it would trade at. So by and large, the market prefers PCGS. I have done a lot of selling of MS69 and MS70 lately, both NGC and PCGS.
<< <i>The biggest spread between PCGS and NGC grading standards are the moderns and ultra moderns. >>
Bingo ... you hit the nail square on.
Was it discussed with the forum member after you received the coin? If so, PM me his name so I can avoid him. I would have an issue with this type seller.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>shouldn't the forum member have mentioned that much damage on a 69 coin he was selling? I would turn to him for a refund in a case like this. Disagreeing with an NGC grade is one thing but this seems it should have been obvious to the seller as well. >>
<< <i>shouldn't the forum member have mentioned that much damage on a 69 coin he was selling? I would turn to him for a refund in a case like this. Disagreeing with an NGC grade is one thing but this seems it should have been obvious to the seller as well.
>>
i would not bother mention it if i was selling it at bullion prices... or very very close
to it if the market has high premiums for buying bullion.
after all... it is JUST bullion in a ngc 69 slab.
<< <i>
<< <i>shouldn't the forum member have mentioned that much damage on a 69 coin he was selling? I would turn to him for a refund in a case like this. Disagreeing with an NGC grade is one thing but this seems it should have been obvious to the seller as well.
>>
i would not bother mention it if i was selling it at bullion prices... or very very close
to it if the market has high premiums for buying bullion.
after all... it is JUST bullion in a ngc 69 slab. >>
Buyer might want a 69 for his collection. I think he is intitled to disclosure that coin is obviously misgraded. What if it was JUST a buffalo nickel?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>shouldn't the forum member have mentioned that much damage on a 69 coin he was selling? I would turn to him for a refund in a case like this. Disagreeing with an NGC grade is one thing but this seems it should have been obvious to the seller as well.
>>
i would not bother mention it if i was selling it at bullion prices... or very very close
to it if the market has high premiums for buying bullion.
after all... it is JUST bullion in a ngc 69 slab. >>
Buyer might want a 69 for his collection. I think he is intitled to disclosure that coin is obviously misgraded. What if it was JUST a buffalo nickel? >>
I agree with fc... if I list junk silver at spot, I could care less if the coin is properly graded. If I market it at melt and you cherrypick me, that's fine... just don't expect it to be something it's not.
<< <i> I agree with fc... if I list junk silver at spot, I could care less if the coin is properly graded. If I market it at melt and you cherrypick me, that's fine... just don't expect it to be something it's not. >>
The fact that your buyer might care that his purchase is not properly graded (and obvious) is not important to you as a dealer?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>I agree with fc... if I list junk silver at spot, I could care less if the coin is properly graded. If I market it at melt and you cherrypick me, that's fine... just don't expect it to be something it's not. >>
I don't. For the sake of accuracy, and to head off any problems, why not disclose there are some issues with the coin but say it is being sold ~melt?
Lance.
<< <i>I just bought a 1/10th oz. Plat from a forum member that was slabbed by NGC as MS-69. >>
What premium did you pay over bullion prices?
<< <i>
<< <i>I just bought a 1/10th oz. Plat from a forum member that was slabbed by NGC as MS-69. >>
What premium did you pay over bullion prices? >>
I'm curious to premium also, but price shouldn't matter. Seller should note an obvious error in grade especially if he's using that information to sell the coin.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>shouldn't the forum member have mentioned that much damage on a 69 coin he was selling? >>
Why didn't the buyer ask for images?
<< <i> Why didn't the buyer ask for images? >>
Probably because coin was being marketed with an assigned grade from a reputable grading company. It's also very possible that seller didn't notice misgrading of coin. You have to give him the benefit of the doubt on this. This is why I asked if buyer contacted seller about the problem. Seller might offer refund.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>
<< <i> I agree with fc... if I list junk silver at spot, I could care less if the coin is properly graded. If I market it at melt and you cherrypick me, that's fine... just don't expect it to be something it's not. >>
The fact that your buyer might care that his purchase is not properly graded (and obvious) is not important to you as a dealer? >>
I'm not a dealer... I buy junk silver/gold at spot and I sell it at spot. If it's raw, bullions, bars, slabbed... I don't care, it is what it is... junk silver/gold meant to be melted. I make it VERY clear it's junk silver/gold. If I sell something at or below spot, it's no longer numismatic... it's bullion. IMO all ASE, AGE and APE are bullion... I don't add a premium to it when I buy/sell it. If it's in an MS70 ANACS/NGC/PCGS slab it's worth the same if it's raw... spot. I have a buyer that buys the majority of my junk silver/gold... he's upgraded quite a few of the coins in his collection that I've sold him at spot. I'm not a coin dealer when I sell metal at spot.
If the OP bought precious metal for his collection and cared about condition... he should be able to return it to the original seller if it was sold at a premium. It's not a coin, and we're in a precious metal market, so it is what it is... precious metal in a speculative market.
<< <i>I'm not a dealer... I buy junk silver/gold at spot and I sell it at spot. If it's raw, bullions, bars, slabbed... I don't care, it is what it is... junk silver/gold meant to be melted. I make it VERY clear it's junk silver/gold. If I sell something at or below spot, it's no longer numismatic... it's bullion. IMO all ASE, AGE and APE are bullion... I don't add a premium to it when I buy/sell it. If it's in an MS70 ANACS/NGC/PCGS slab it's worth the same if it's raw... spot. I have a buyer that buys the majority of my junk silver/gold... he's upgraded quite a few of the coins in his collection that I've sold him at spot. I'm not a coin dealer when I sell metal at spot.
If the OP bought precious metal for his collection and cared about condition... he should be able to return it to the original seller if it was sold at a premium. It's not a coin, and we're in a precious metal market, so it is what it is... precious metal in a speculative market. >>
Selling junk is one thing, selling graded coins (or bullion) is another. Buyer should not have to speculate that coin is graded properly. The whole purpose in buying (and advertising) reputable grading is to avoid the speculation of the condition of the coin (or bullion).
PS. I'll takes some of those MS70 bullion eagles at spot.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>PS. I'll takes some of those MS70 bullion eagles at spot. >>
You can be my back up buyer if my primary buyer stops buying... however, you need to realize you'll be purchasing ten-of-thousands of dollars of junk silver/gold along with those MS70 eagles.
<< <i>
<< <i>PS. I'll takes some of those MS70 bullion eagles at spot. >>
You can be my back up buyer if my primary buyer stops buying... however, you need to realize you'll be purchasing ten-of-thousands of dollars of junk silver/gold along with those MS70 eagles. >>
Sounds like your buyer is clear on what he is receiving. OP was not in the same boat.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
shouldn't the forum member have mentioned that much damage on a 69 coin he was selling? I would turn to him for a refund in a case like this. Disagreeing with an NGC grade is one thing but this seems it should have been obvious to the seller as well.
Was it discussed with the forum member after you received the coin? If so, PM me his name so I can avoid him. I would have an issue with this type seller.
derryb and ajman - I disagree with you - because the seller sold me exactly what I thought I was buying: an NGC MS-69 Plat. I went into the transaction with my eyes open. My issue isn't with the seller, and I don't think anyone's issue should be. In this case, neither the seller nor myself made a mistake. Taking the concept of TPG grading and sight-unseen markets to the extreme - the seller isn't obligated to actually look at the coin when he buys it or sells it. The TPG however, is supposed to look at it when they receive a fee for doing just that.
<< I agree with fc... if I list junk silver at spot, I could care less if the coin is properly graded. If I market it at melt and you cherrypick me, that's fine... just don't expect it to be something it's not. >>
I disagree with fc's reasoning, even tho I agree with his conclusion. I bought the coin at a slight premium and I was intending to eventually re-certify it at PCGS and then to include it in my collection, just as I intend to do with several other NGC-graded coins. And llafoe - this is not the same as cherrypicking junk silver, (which has not been submitted to a TPG for a fee-based grading service).
This coin, unless it is a red herring for this TPG - would completely obliterate the assumption of acceptability for a coin at this grade, premium or no.
Yeah, I could talk to the seller about this - but the premium wasn't much and the coin still has the bullion price as a floor under it. It's worth more to me to make a determination what the quality of the TPG's grading is at the MS-69 level than it is to quibble with the seller. I can always sell the coin, but I really don't want to keep getting inferior coins and then have to undo the transactions or to start chasing down a TPG for a buyback. I simply want to do it right the first time. PCGS MS-69 and PCGS PR-69 have never disappointed me.
I knew it would happen.
When I took a grading class from an NGC grader, I asked where the line was on a particular grade we were discussing, and I was told there is no line very emphatically. They grade by concensus. I guess thats whats called market grading. So in that case, to describe what would constitute a particular grade can be a bit nebulous. I prefer the consistency of a standard. I have seen the PCGS grading standard sets when they were on display. All services make mistakes though. I think they would admit that. I think PCGS will buy and take mistakes off the market, correct me if I am wrong here.
Krueger
<< <i>And llafoe - this is not the same as cherrypicking junk silver, (which has not been submitted to a TPG for a fee-based grading service). >>
A lot of my junk silver/gold is in ANACS, ICG, NGC, PCI and PCGS plastic. A LOT of slabbed coins/bullion are worth more as precious metal than they're worth as coins. Either the PM bubble will burst or collectors will adjust the value of these coins... until then, may these coins burn in... melting pots.
best of luck to you