The Majority Rule ATB Puck Fiasco and US MInt

RadioContestKing

Ok First I wish to thank the four people who actually took the time to call the mint over the recent activity from Jack Hunt and also Dillon Gage charging 1159 for a set which is against the mint pricing policy. I received a call from the mint yesterday and talked to the gentleman for about 15 minutes. First I was told that ony 4 people have called to complain about Jack sending out some sets raw while others were graded(NO 69DMPL) I was told that apparently every one else is happy. Now I cannot understand how anyone can be happy buying something that has been cherrypicked. The majority started out together and for those who said nothing can be done, I laugh. The mint shut everything down when we ALL called about the pricing from ampex, and look what happened, price went from 1398 to 950. The Gold center was next with there approach to selling retail, Not only did we have to put up with attitude buying from them but 3400 sets completely disappeared. But at least with the G C the mint did receive alot of calls. Now we are near the end of this and jack decided its ok as an EXPERIMENT to send off some to be graded. Those that got these sets believe that they hit the lottery, when in fact you got all the junk jack didn't want. I have avoided the mega thread for the past 2 days and now find it funny that some are worried that ampex buying back will lead to cherry picking the sets they sold. Most of you were tickled pink with your graded sets from jack, to those you have nothing to complain about, you had the chance to call the mint but chose to accept the set as is. I was informed by the mint THAT ALL of the ap's ARE APPROVED TO SELL THE 2011. I asked the guy from the mint how can that be and if he took the time to look at the signatures, I was told NO he did not check the names and address BUT HE COULD do so anytime. I than told him as a taxpayer I want to see the G.C and jack BOOKs looked at. I now realize that I am in the Minority....To those who are going to try and collect the bullion series good luckthe number for The Mint Office of Legal Council it is the correct office and number: 202-354-7280. I encourage all who are interested to call. Again thank you to All that took the time and called..............

oldfolkie

I did call last week about Jack Hunt and the Gold Center and my wife told me he called back yesterday. I will try and call him today. I am in total agreement with your message and will do what I can. If GC and JH get away with this the mint guidelines mean nothing. Did he have a justification for the fact that HSN had so many sets before they were suppose to have even one.

lightcycler

I'm leaving a message at Greg Hafners voice mail now

epcjimi1

I called the legal consul's office at the mint and they called back, but was busy at work and didn't pick up in time so I didn't get my chance to blast JH, DG + GC.

It stinks that the mint does not periodically evaluate the business practices of its APs as a requirement for the privilege extended by the mint to be a mint bullion distributor. Talk about a sweet deal for the APs! I can't think of a situation that would warrant such evaluation more than this one, if for no other reason to evaluate the effectiveness of what the mint does, let alone its APs!

If nothing else, perhaps the mint will learn from this 2010 bullion fiasco and further impose this on the APs -

APs are not allowed to re-package, evaluate for quality or desirability by either themselves or by a third party the bullion supplied by the mint to the AP for resale to the public.

All the APs should be allowed to do is sell the bullion.

Not conduct so-called "experiments". What a crock!

Also, I wonder what a Freedom of Information Act request would show to see the if the mint even has ever even conducted an audit of an AP after the initial approval process has been performed.

My $.02

PinkFloyd

It is a ridiculous notion that not receiving calls should mean that folks are happy.

Folks--myself included--are road weary with these 2010 ATBs and are sick of jumping through hoops--making phonecalls being one of them. My defeatist attitude in the monster thread was a reflection of this. I also think John Maben has a few good points in his recent post in the monster thread.

1Tommy and the others--really--thank you for calling. Phonecalls like yours saved us all from price gouging early on, and I cannot thank you enough for your efforts.


I am still waiting for my cherrypicked (I was told I'd get 68s) Jack Hunts and will try to call once I get them.

revoldlog

I am not too happy about CNT and Jack Hunt, but at least they offered a chance for the public to purchase. I forgive them. I think Jack Hunt sold over 3k sets to the public?

The only AP I am extremely unhappy is Gold Center. They only sold a few hundred sets at their B&M store in early Jan? And now they pretended they sold all of them to the public???

MsMorrisine

Acting Mint Director Andrew Brunhart
fax 202-756-6160

MsMorrisine

<< <i> I think Jack Hunt sold over 3k sets to the public? >>




Are we in agreement with this???

Tommy?

oldfolkie

For what it's worth, I called Greg Hafners number and left a very long message again. My emphasis this time was more on the future than the past. It does not seem right to me that theses select companies should be able to sell bullion, call it bullion, and then cherry pick, "as collectible coins" to their financial advantage---while putting us at a complete disadvantage. They've already got a sweetheart deal, they should not be abusing it.

Please call and at least leave a message, since that's all I've been able to do, especially if you intend to collect the bullion version of these coins. I should add that Greg Hafner did attempt to call me back but I do have to work during the day. If they think silence is "contentment" let them know how you really feel about being ignored, lied to, and used. These coins are suppose to represent the best America has to offer. They were not meant as tokens to allow the wealthy and powerful to become more so at our expense. All I want is a fair playing field. The parks were establiished for the enjoyment of all, the coins should be the same. The Parks are run to allow the little guys the same access as the big guys, the coins should be the same.

I do believe the squeaky wheel gets the grease, it's time to do some squeaking. Remember the mint has said all the APs will get their 2011 allotments, what a slap in the face to us and the APs that played fair.

RadioContestKing

<< <i>

<< <i> I think Jack Hunt sold over 3k sets to the public? >>




Are we in agreement with this???

Tommy? >>

Nope and even if they did sell 3000 sets where is the other 400? Plus remember with jack he had ngc and pcgs graded bullion he sent out. Two grading companys as an experiment? And no 69dmpl? There is no way to prove any of them did or did not sell these to the public without looking at there books. This was part of the agreement that the AP's agreed too. So Let the mint follow thru and have a look. IT has also been reported and upcoming article will touch on the fact that the ap's have always cherry picked but it wasn't so obivious until the ATB were released.Even MsM reported sending in 25 and getting 1 69dmpl do you really think jack sent in a hundred or more and got none? FACT The G. C. sold 200 sets to the public 3400 sets disappeared. Fact Jack hunt sent in a certain number of sets to be graded NOT 1 69DMPL sent out. Fact Dillon Gage selling sets of NGC gem bu sets for 1159.00.

MsMorrisine

DG says sold out again, but they were PCGS as far as I can recall.

While a minor breach, they shouldn't have sold graded coins with the graded price. The thing to do was to just sell them all raw if they couldn't do th volume with PCGS to get a good discount.




I will put tGC, JH, and DG in different "complaint classes."

DG had a really bad idea.
JH is suspect because they apparently had sets from two graders ready to send out to people. They were only promising PCGS 68's to people, yet had NGC readily available??

and tGC needs no introduction.

tGC absolutely needs an audit. JH probably needs a good audit. DG just needs some sense talked into them.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>the number for The Mint Office of Legal Council it is the correct office and number: 202-354-7280 >>




left a message Re: necessity of audits for a couple of the ATB APs.

I hope I can get a call back.

I'd rather have their fax number so I can write it out.


I think I can make a good case for auditing them, but it might read better than I can speak it.

RadioContestKing

<< <i>DG says sold out again, but they were PCGS as far as I can recall.

While a minor breach, they shouldn't have sold graded coins with the graded price. The thing to do was to just sell them all raw if they couldn't do th volume with PCGS to get a good discount.




I will put tGC, JH, and DG in different "complaint classes."

DG had a really bad idea.
JH is suspect because they apparently had sets from two graders ready to send out to people. They were only promising PCGS 68's to people, yet had NGC readily available??

and tGC needs no introduction.

tGC absolutely needs an audit. JH probably needs a good audit. DG just needs some sense talked into them. >>

And dillon was NGC 155 sets.............

PinkFloyd

I think I will try to draft something to fax too.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>I'm leaving a message at Greg Hafners voice mail now >>



I got his attention.

He wants me to send what I have.


which means I hope that some of the people with knowledge on this can also send him a fax to back me up.

RadioContestKing

<< <i>

<< <i>I'm leaving a message at Greg Hafners voice mail now >>



I got his attention.

He wants me to send what I have.


which means I hope that some of the people with knowledge on this can also send him a fax to back me up. >>

Do you need any of the articles from the gold center? G C Article and this one article 2 Are you using the number you posted? No fax here but you can attached my name to one with those........Nice Job.......... He really needs to read the comments left on the first article Jim replys from the G. C. and he needs to read exactly what jim thinks about the mint.

MsMorrisine

I would like the people with the knowledge about Silvertowne's purchase and sales of ATB sets from the Gold Center to back me up.

That's one.


Another would be those who saw the HSN and CSN sales, but could not order from any AP to also back me up.

abadasp

I see why Mr. Hafner seemed not to care what I had to say about the way the ATB coins were being distributed,only had 4 complaints.If I had known this I would have spoken longer and louder, Come on people do you like getting screwed make the call.

MsMorrisine

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A miracle has occured.

I have the ear of the US Mint Headquarters.


If you have stories, like of Silvertowne's purchase of ATB sets from tGC, please let me know and HELP by supporting me. I need the information you have to help back me up.


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MsMorrisine

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A miracle has occured.

I have the ear of the US Mint Headquarters.


If you have stories, like of Silvertowne's purchase of ATB sets from tGC, please let me know and HELP by supporting me. I need the information you have to help back me up.


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MsMorrisine

<< <i>I see why Mr. Hafner seemed not to care what I had to say about the way the ATB coins were being distributed,only had 4 complaints.If I had known this I would have spoken longer and louder, Come on people do you like getting screwed make the call. >>




I laid out the biggest one before asking to send in the fax with "the info I have"

The big one: no one here could buy a single coin from an AP, but the HSN guys said on tv "we bought these from an AP."

someone went back door, and they need to be found. That's what the audit is for.


They said they'd take a look at what I had, and I said I'd fax something over.



I gotta make a good case, so I need info from you guys to back me up.

epcjimi1

<< <i>I would like the people with the knowledge about Silvertowne's purchase and sales of ATB sets from the Gold Center to back me up.

That's one.


Another would be those who saw the HSN and CSN sales, but could not order from any AP to also back me up. >>



I'm not sure what you mean.

I couldn't buy from tGC in early Jan., but watched the HSN + CSN in early Jan selling sets of NGC graded pucks in the $3999 - $4999 price range.

I don't know if I can help, but you certainly have my support.

coasterfan

I think all we have is circumstantial evidence like the video that was uploaded to YouTube, and the GC owner's comments that appeared in the news article. I don't believe anyone has any hard evidence. The Mint can only get to the bottom of the GC fiasco by performing an audit, contacting a sampling of the people who supposedly bought from the GC, and ask them if they bought from the GC.

PinkFloyd

<< <i>I think all we have is circumstantial evidence like the video that was uploaded to YouTube, and the GC owner's comments that appeared in the news article. I don't believe anyone has any hard evidence. The Mint can only get to the bottom of the GC fiasco by performing an audit, contacting a sampling of the people who supposedly bought from the GC, and ask them if they bought from the GC. >>



Quite right..I think we all have observations and speculation based on those observations but that's about it. The hard evidence is few and far between. Ms, I did forward you my email in which JH said I would get MS68 coins, and this is the only bit of hard evidence I have that questions how fair these sales were.

It's hard to go pointing fingers with our limited view. For example, DG and its marked up slabs. Sure it looks suspicious, but how do we not know that they sold out, and then purchased those from another party? Given that scenario, the markup was completely legit.

Ms, thank you for spending the time to look into this. You rock.

jmski52

There is pretty good documentation that maybe 400 people at most were able to buy from GC on one single day. Other than that, GC should be on the hook for about 2,600 other documented sales, no?

pitboss

What about bluemoon coins listing # 190523861437 standing in front of those boxes of coins holding handfuls of graded coins. He had hundreds of sets. Where did he get them?

agentjim007

Can't we all just get along?

MsMorrisine

<< <i>I think all we have is circumstantial evidence like the video that was uploaded to YouTube, and the GC owner's comments that appeared in the news article. I don't believe anyone has any hard evidence. The Mint can only get to the bottom of the GC fiasco by performing an audit, contacting a sampling of the people who supposedly bought from the GC, and ask them if they bought from the GC. >>




someone on the monster thread said they knew the grandson of the Silvertowne's owner, and was told they purchased a bunch of sets from tGC.


I just have to find that post.


There is other ancedotal and circumstantial stuff.... like the eBay auctions that had multiples listed and someone said the people were in Sprinfield, Il, the same city as tGC.

smokincoin

segoja... a member here. Wasn't it his picture, standing with his hoard, on the front of a magazine a few months ago? website
Maybe he can help with your investigation?

abadasp

The only hard facts I have are my JHCB pucks at PCGS for grading. They were a raw set of 5 will know how they graded in a few days, they didn't look like 69`s, But the JH SKULLDUGGERY had not popped up when I received them, Other wise would have saved my money to inspect coins that had a chance.

PinkFloyd

I also wonder about Coins and Things. What's going on? There is no way those guys legitimately sold all of their sets with their two days of phone sales. I'd be interested to know if they've ordered the 2011s.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>segoja... a member here. Wasn't it his picture, standing with his hoard, on the front of a magazine a few months ago? website
Maybe he can help with your investigation? >>




do you have a link to the publication? do you know which pub and issue it was?


I need all the help I can get.

coasterfan

That was Coin World. Some issue in January, if I remember. I can do that tonight.

coasterfan

<< <i>That was Coin World. Some issue in January, if I remember. I can do that tonight. >>


If I recall correctly, James said he and his son bought them from people who were standing in line. That is, he got them in a legitimate way, so I don't think he would have anything helpful to the investigation.

Rooster1

This may be the wrong thread to discuss this, but what is going on with APMEX? I purchased a 2010 set of ATB's from them
on 4-15-2011 for 1008 dollars. They charged my CC on the 17th and was supposed to ship on the 20th. They never shipped
and APMEX sends me an e mail wanting to buy some sets at 1250 dollars.
Does anyone know what is going on?

epcjimi1

Well, I don't get it frankly. In my profession, quality control, audits are conducted on a scheduled and random basis to ensure things are on the up and up for everything and I mean EVERYTHING.

The way I read all this, the mint needs hard evidence to audit an AP?

I think the circumstantial evidence AND the opportunity for un-ethical and underhanded business practices by an AP should demand some type of audit schedule by the mint to make sure its APs are in line. Either random or scheduled.

There are plenty of professions where UA audits are conducted to ensure the employees aren't taking drugs. You don't have to be suspected. Your number comes up, you go pee in the cup.

PinkFloyd

<< <i>

The way I read all this, the mint needs hard evidence to audit an AP?
>>



I wouldn't think so....otherwise its basically a Catch-22 of sorts.

jmski52

Coin World article Jan. 24, 2011 - details several interesting developments including the Gold Center fiasco and the appearance of exorbitantly priced sets that are already graded and encapsulated - being sold by both Coin Vault and Cable Shopping Network.

At least two forum member dealers had multiple graded sets available for high prices on ebay before any of the APs announced that they had even begun selling any sets. This speaks to both cherry-picking and inequitable distribution policies. Maybe those two dealers could shed some light on which APs were selling under the counter. Any bets on whether or not they will come forward with that information?

agentjim007

Can we burn someone at the stake? Can we huh can we?

jmski52

This may be the wrong thread to discuss this, but what is going on with APMEX? I purchased a 2010 set of ATB's from them
on 4-15-2011 for 1008 dollars. They charged my CC on the 17th and was supposed to ship on the 20th. They never shipped
and APMEX sends me an e mail wanting to buy some sets at 1250 dollars. Does anyone know what is going on?

If you got an order confirmation when you ordered, call them and get an order status update. When I called them today, I was told that they are doing them in batches, and that my batch is shipping on May 13th. My original order confirmation gave a ship date of 1-3 days. I get the distinct feeling that I'm going to be receiving a mish-mash of re-treads that they've bought on the open market.

jmski52

Can we burn someone at the stake? Can we huh can we?

I don't particularly appreciate the insider deals that circumvent the rules that the rest of us have to follow. What about you, Jim?

abadasp

Sent JHCB an e-mail in regards to getting a RAW set of 5 that looked of poor quality on 4/20/2011. JHCB replied on 4/20/2011 ( form letter ) in regards to raw and graded sets offered $1000 refund had already sent for grading for proof of quality. 1 tommy has a copy of JHCB reply posted on page 653

derryb

I really don't understand all the witch hunting over this. If you don't like the way someone runs their business then don't do business with them. If you suspect someone violated their agreement with the US Mint, notify the US Mint. Seems like a few people are taking this quite personal.

MsMorrisine

If anyone has a load of eBay auctions or sellers that have suspiciously large quantities of the Bullion Sets, I can send that in. I'd need more than the one previously posted though.

I'm thinking something worthwhile and worth the Mint's time would be 20 or more sets by 1 seller, esp. if they are all in high grades.


Also, anyone have a scan of that Coin World picture and article that I can have to send in? I didn't even mention that because I didn't have the article nor picture.

boucharda

<< <i>Sent JHCB an e-mail in regards to getting a RAW set of 5 that looked of poor quality on 4/20/2011. JHCB replied on 4/20/2011 ( form letter ) in regards to raw and graded sets offered $1000 refund had already sent for grading for proof of quality. 1 tommy has a copy of JHCB reply posted on page 653 >>



So that explains it...On another thread I inquired why you would intentionally sent in poor quality coins for grading....

It was for "proof of quality"......

I understand.....So the coins sucked..... and you wanted to prove that they sucked so you spent a tad under $300 to accomplish this....

I guess you were right...they sucked

I seem to remember a disclaimer that they were selling bullion and bullion coins inherently have dings and marks from handling....

Yes, they cherrypicked the good coins out but they still sent you the bullion you ordered....

....and it cost you $300 more than it should have

st0cky

<< <i>If anyone has a load of eBay auctions or sellers that have suspiciously large quantities of the Bullion Sets, I can send that in. I'd need more than the one previously posted though. >>




<< <i>I'm thinking something worthwhile and worth the Mint's time would be 20 or more sets by 1 seller, esp. if they are all in high grades. >>




Good Afternoon,

I think I may be able to help. I've been following the ATB puck saga on this forum and Ebay for months now. Being an avid investor and collector, I have bought a set from each AP (except GC), thanks to the information sharing on this forum.

To get to the point, in the past week, while doing my weekly completed auctions searches I've noticed a seller pop up numerous times selling 15 PCGS Yellowstone MS69 DMPLs. Further delving into his feedback shows that he's sold 20+ sets and has made statements like "actual coins have not be unpacked from original mint tube," "after purchase, top coin will be removed, packaged and shipped" and "coins have not been handled since leaving the mint." Another interesting note is that he lives in Williamsville, NY, which is less than 20 minutes away from Jack Hunt in Kenmore, NY!

I might just be obsessing over nothing, but this seller has really caught my attention because of the sheer number of PCGS Yellowstone MS69 DMPLs he has in hand. I can't imagine how many sets you would have to cherry pick through to have this kind of success.

Anyway, here's a link to one of his completed auctions.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>If anyone has a load of eBay auctions or sellers that have suspiciously large quantities of the Bullion Sets, I can send that in. I'd need more than the one previously posted though.

I'm thinking something worthwhile and worth the Mint's time would be 20 or more sets by 1 seller, esp. if they are all in high grades.Text


Good Afternoon,

I think I may be able to help. I've been following the ATB puck saga on this forum and Ebay for months now. Being an avid investor and collector, I have bought a set from each AP (except GC), thanks to the information sharing on this forum.

To get to the point, in the past week, while doing my weekly completed auctions searches I've noticed a seller pop up numerous times selling 15 PCGS Yellowstone MS69 DMPLs. Further delving into his feedback shows that he's sold 20+ sets and has made statements like "actual coins have not be unpacked from original mint tube," "after purchase, top coin will be removed, packaged and shipped" and "coins have not been handled since leaving the mint." Another interesting note is that he lives in Williamsville, NY, which is less than 20 minutes away from Jack Hunt in Kenmore, NY!

I might just be obsessing over nothing, but this seller has really caught my attention because of the sheer number of PCGS Yellowstone MS69 DMPLs he has in hand. I can't imagine how many sets you would have to cherry pick through to have this kind of success.

Anyway, here's a link to one of his completed auctions: http://cgi.ebay.com/2010-5oz-America-Beautiful-PCGS-MS69DMPL-YS-/130514351726?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6342f66e >>




perfect.


thanks

MsMorrisine

If anyone has any more, I'll take them!

RadioContestKing

<< <i>I really don't understand all the witch hunting over this. If you don't like the way someone runs their business then don't do business with them. If you suspect someone violated their agreement with the US Mint, notify the US Mint. Seems like a few people are taking this quite personal. >>

Than you must not be following this thread at all, otherwise you would Really understande what is going on. THANK YOU st0cky I have said since the beginning that jack hunt not only screwed over all those who got a raw set but now with this info this is where all the 69dm have gone. Its amazing there are those of you who STILL just want us to drop the Witch hunt, They did not follow the rules they signed, Pure and simple they do not need to get the 2011. AUDIT AUDIT AUDIT NO ONE Of the ap's should have ANY of these graded. B U Gem Is fine everyone has the same chance But graded ? No way.... Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this cause.............. And continue the search for the truth............... And Welcome to the forum st0ckyjacks experiment pays off

RedHerring

<< I think Jack Hunt sold over 3k sets to the public? >>

I agree based on what I know. Jack Hunt had sets for sale that both my brother and I purchased. Arrived raw, in good shape (mine weren't cherry-picked) , and in a timely manner.

Jmiami

to sum up a long email

***ACT FAST!

A Special limited time offer exclusively for our America the Beautiful Five Ounce Silver coin purchasers:

You have received this e-mail because you purchased the US Mint 2010 America the Beautiful Five Ounce Silver Coin set from A-Mark Direct. ***

thing is I never ordered a set from them....