A question about errors and key dates

Whit

Good afternoon, everyone:

I have always been curious about the apparent disconnection between error coinage and key date coinage; particularly, I wonder why, in over 45 years of studying and collecting US coinage, I have never seen or even heard of an off-center 09-S VDB or a multiply-struck 16-D merc. I realize that by the very nature of certain errors, the date/mint may be missing. But regardless, do major errors in key dates ever go to market or even exist? Does anyone collect in this area? What have you seen?

Whit

jmcu12

Personally I would think that on off-center or multistruck key date would be awesome! But a lot of others consider errors on key dates as unattractive.

But to your point I have seen neither.

iceman0xh

You have to understand just by the nature of key dates they have a lot less likely chance of being errors just by the population stand point. A lot less struck means a lot less of a chance 1 or 2 might come out with some sort of error

jmcu12

I saw a 1955 Doubled Die on a tapered planchet - but not with a major striking error.

But could you imagine a multi-struck 55 doubled die - the effects would be dizzying -

tradedollarnut

Seems to me that most of the errors that exist were taken out of the Philly mint and most of the key dates are branch mints. Perhaps procedures were more strict at the branch mints since they were smaller? Or more likely, perhaps since most coin collectors were in large cities on the East Coast demand was higher and thus the incentive higher to get one out of the closest mint which was Philly.

After all - what's a miner near Carson City gonna do with an off center Seated Dollar???

tahoe98

...would something like this qualify?

FredWeinberg

IcemanO has it right, I believe.

In general, and there are exceptions of course,
the lower the Mintage of a particular coin, the
less chance that a striking error will occur, or
if it does, the chance that it would be found/seen
as part of the examination of struck coins increases.

As part of the Bolt Collection, to illustrate an exception,
there were 6 Gem toned BU 1921 Mercury Dimes that
were about 10%-15% Off-Center......and in 1974, they
were worth about 60-70% of what the same coin was
worth without it being Off Center.

Clips on Keys are rare, but I agree that Double Struck,
Off Center, or Off Metal Key dates are, for the most
part, non-existant for MOST type coin series.........

questor54

<< <i>...would something like this qualify?

>>



Is that some kind of a crack?

PerryHall

I had a 1916-D Mercury dime with a filled mintmark error. I wish I still had it.

tahoe98

...yeah, sure is, frank! thanks to a postal mishap. all is good now though.

Broadstruck

<< <i>I have never seen or even heard of an off-center 09-S VDB >>



There's a 1909-S VDB example out there in a ICG VF-35 holder 5% Off Center popped on the Market around 5 years ago with an ask of $4K and sold.

FredWeinberg

I have a 1955 Doubled Die Cent in
an old small ANACS plastic holder
with a rim clipped planchet; AU-55
I think (haven't looked at it in many
years).

(there are one or two others, I believe).

There is also a one-known 1918/7-D
Buffalo Nickel, in a old small White
ANACS holder, that I'm putting up
on Ebay tomorrow. (Am I allowed to say that?)

ctf_error_coins

I do the opposite with my Main Error Type set.

I choose the year 2000 BECAUSE the mintages were extremely high and there were a huge number of type errors and also this is before the mint started really cracking down on errors.

I have hundreds of different "type" errors from the year 2000, and I would bet it is the single largest error type set out there from a single date

sms88

It may not be a key date, but it does have a lower mintage than the 1916d mercury
Also, check out this link for the Info about 1916d RPM
The pic is an 1847 Date Overlaps Base with a small clipped planchet

FredWeinberg

That 16-D Dime with a RPM is a Die Variety;
there are Key Date coins known struck with
different dies; some of which are RPMs,
Doubled Dies, etc.

I think the OP was talking about mechanical
errors, such as Double Strikes, Off Centers,
Off Metals, maybe clips, etc.....

BillJones

<< <i>I had a 1916-D Mercury dime with a filled mintmark error. I wish I still had it. >>



If I'd had that coin, I'd be just as happy not to own. A filled mint mark, when the mint mark means EVERYTHING is pain in the butt to sell. Just look at the 1911-D quarter eagles will very weak mint marks. You can hardly sell them, and when you do it's at a deep discount.

I think that low mintages result in far fewer errors, but at any rate to me a major error on a key date is usually not a good thing. Collectors who are buying key dates want coins that fit in with their sets, and error coins usualy don't do that.

CaptHenway

<< <i>

<< <i>...would something like this qualify?

>>



Is that some kind of a crack? >>



It broke me up!

CaptHenway

<< <i>I have a 1955 Doubled Die Cent in
an old small ANACS plastic holder
with a rim clipped planchet; AU-55
I think (haven't looked at it in many
years).

(there are one or two others, I believe).

There is also a one-known 1918/7-D
Buffalo Nickel, in a old small White
ANACS holder, that I'm putting up
on Ebay tomorrow. (Am I allowed to say that?) >>



I'm pretty sure there is a ragged clip 1955 DDO out there.
TD

questor54

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>...would something like this qualify?

>>



Is that some kind of a crack? >>



It broke me up!

>>



OH, I get it now! CAC, not crack! Sorry about that, I will have it reholdered.

SCDHunter

<< <i>I had a 1916-D Mercury dime with a filled mintmark error. I wish I still had it. >>



Are you sure that wasn't the glued-on mintmark error? I understand that there are lots of those out there!

DaveG

A dealer I know had a PCGS-slabbed (VF or XF) 1921 (or 1921-D) Mercury dime that had a rotated reverse (about 30 or 45 degrees, if I recall).

I didn't care for it because of the rotation and he owned that coin for a lot longer that I thought he should have, given the rarity of the date and condition.

MrEureka

There's at least one significantly off center 16-D Merc known.

I recently had an off center 14-D Lincoln.

I'm sure there are others, if I think about it...

PerryHall

<< <i>

<< <i>I had a 1916-D Mercury dime with a filled mintmark error. I wish I still had it. >>



Are you sure that wasn't the glued-on mintmark error? I understand that there are lots of those out there! >>



I'm glad someone got my joke.

mcgrover

I possess and have seen a half dozen '55 double die cents with a rotated die of about 20% or so. It was so prevalent I thought it would be a certification point, but I've seen very little about it in print in the books I've looked at.

Bochiman

Depends on when they were minted as well.
I think the 1811 qualifies as a key date for the half cents, but there is an error one sitting on ebay for the last month or two that is an error. So, they are out there.

The later the key date, the better the processes/equipment at the mints, imho.

COINB0Y

One of my biggest error coins.

seanq

<< <i>There's at least one significantly off center 16-D Merc known.

I recently had an off center 14-D Lincoln.

I'm sure there are others, if I think about it... >>




I've heard of a large centered broadstruck 1916-D Mercury dime in Gem BU with FSB, though I've never seen it.

The term I've heard for these coins is "white elephant". The ones that do exist actually trade for a discount versus a non-error key date. The reason is that error collectors typically don't care about dates and won't want to pay the premium for the key date, while date collectors typically want their keys to be problem free. There are a few lunatics out there collecting errors by date who will flip over key date errors, but they... er, we... are a rare breed.

I've specialized in collecting clipped planchets for over 15 years, focusing on Lincoln Cents by date, so I've got some info on those. There are several 1909-S VDB cents with clips, the ANACS population in the late 1990s was four coins (three in UNC and one circulated), plus I know of one in an NGC AU58 holder which NEN sold last year (used to belong to a friend) and another in a PCGS MS60BN holder this guy which sold earlier this year.

I don't have the 09-S VDB but I do have the 1909-S (over horizontal S), 1914-D, 1924-D, 1926-S (UNC), and 1931-S (UNC) with clips. I also own a clipped 1922 Plain (die pair #2) which I believe is unique, it was formerly in an ANACS VF details holder but now resides in my album. I also recall an off-center 1922 Plain (about 20% toward K-12) selling a few years go in the mid four figures. As for varieties I know of the following on clipped planchets: a 1917 DDO in a PCGS 65RD holder, a 1936 DDO #2, several 1955 DDOs (on tapered planchets or with rim clips), and several 1972 DDO #3.

In other series I know of the following clipped planchets: an 1918/17-D Buffalo nickel (I believe Fred said he was running that coin on eBay, I know it was in his inventory for some time), at least two 1877 Indian cents, an 1864 small date Two Cent piece (sold earlier this year and currently back on eBay), a 1912-D nickel, 1921 and 1921-D Mercury dimes, a 1932-S quarter and a 1793 Wreath cent. Many of these were owned by the same friend I mentioned earlier, a gentleman who also at one time owned over a full roll of clipped 1950-D nickels. The 1847 dime variety mentioned in an earlier post was once his too.

I lost most of my online images a few months ago, tomorrow I'll dig out my back-up and post pics of a few of the coins I mentioned above.


Sean Reynolds

Edited because I remembered a couple more

seanq

Bumping with some pics of the coin in my last post (Apologies in advance for the photo quality. Boy do I need to take some new photos of my date set.):

1914-D


1924-D


1926-S


1931-S


1922 Plain



Sean Reynolds

Shamika

<< <i>IcemanO has it right, I believe.

In general, and there are exceptions of course,
the lower the Mintage of a particular coin, the
less chance that a striking error will occur, or
if it does, the chance that it would be found/seen
as part of the examination of struck coins increases. >>



Fred - Why would the "chance" of an error occuring on a lower mintage coin be any less than for a higher mintage coin? I can understand that the absolute numbers would be decreased, but it seems that the chances are generally the same. Off-center, broadstruck, or clipped errors should still happen for low mintage issues (low is relative) as for high mintage issues. Thus the odds of an off-cent strike maybe 1 in 10000, but then the number of errors for a particular issue are nothing more than a function of the total mintage.

19Lyds

I'll offer this one up.

amwldcoin

My experience with coins tells me this. The lower the mintage or greater the rarity a coin has...the less premium...or even non premium the coin has. Most collectors do not want an error key date for their centerpiece as it detracts form the rest of the set. White Elephant is an excellent metephor!

ThePennyLady

<< <i>My experience with coins tells me this. The lower the mintage or greater the rarity a coin has...the less premium...or even non premium the coin has. Most collectors do not want an error key date for their centerpiece as it detracts form the rest of the set. White Elephant is an excellent metephor! >>



I actually love error key dates and think they are very unique, and that the error makes them more "special" than they already are. I only have one (and posted it on the other thread), but I LOVE it and think it is very rare....

Broadstruck

<< <i>I actually love error key dates and think they are very unique, and that the error makes them more "special" than they already are. I only have one (and posted it on the other thread), but I LOVE it and think it is very rare.... >>





I have a few and like them all as some are dates in series that I used to daydream about as a kid.

As non errors these key dates just wouldn't have fit my collection.