STARS, stars, StarS.......What is up with the stars?
AUandAG
Posts: 24,802 ✭✭✭✭✭
I miss those little stars. Our coinage pretty much eliminated the stars. Yes, I understand
that there is no room for them on the smaller coins but that has not always been the case.
Now, why do some coins have 5 point stars and some 6 point stars and some have BOTH?
Certainly there should be some consistency. We have 5 point stars on our Flag. 5 point
stars on the Presidential Seal. 6 point stars on the House of Representative's Seal!
What's up with this???? I would have thought that this would be cast in stone, so to say.
Haven't looked at all the coinage but here are some examples of both 5 and 6 and 5/6.
Post some stars and your thoughts? Does Betsy Ross come into play? Does G. Washington?
bob
Trade dollar 6 stars:
Barber Half 6 and 5 stars:
Gold: 5 and then 6:
Morgan 6 stars:
Kennedy 5 stars:
that there is no room for them on the smaller coins but that has not always been the case.
Now, why do some coins have 5 point stars and some 6 point stars and some have BOTH?
Certainly there should be some consistency. We have 5 point stars on our Flag. 5 point
stars on the Presidential Seal. 6 point stars on the House of Representative's Seal!
What's up with this???? I would have thought that this would be cast in stone, so to say.
Haven't looked at all the coinage but here are some examples of both 5 and 6 and 5/6.
Post some stars and your thoughts? Does Betsy Ross come into play? Does G. Washington?
bob
Trade dollar 6 stars:
Barber Half 6 and 5 stars:
Gold: 5 and then 6:
Morgan 6 stars:
Kennedy 5 stars:
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
0
Comments
...OH MY STARS!
Lot's of stars on this coin, all 6 point.
<< <i>I like stars.
81-S or 82-S?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Heraldry says 5 points, ornamentation uses even number of points. Someplace, I have a letter from Charles Barber explaining this in his own, long-winded, unpunctuated, style. >>
Really?
"In English heraldry the star, or etoile (Fr.) is represented by six or more wavy points" From: Numistmatist July, 1929.
Webster, 1913: Mul"let, n. [F. molette.] (Her.) A star, usually five pointed and pierced
Oxford: Mullet:a star with five (or more) straight-edged points or rays, as a charge or a mark of cadency for a third son…
I think that we could site references and argue all day but it comes down to how the engraver
thought it should look (Barber had mixed feelings with 5 and 6 point stars on his coinage) whereas
Morgan thought it had to be a 6 pointed star. Then Pratt decided 5 looked appropriate but Augustus Saint-Gaudens
thought it was 6!
But, wait a minute! Barber and Morgan both used 5 pointers on the Stella! (flowing and coiled hair). So, Morgan used
both 5 and 6 and so did Barber.
Now I'm really seeing stars. Can you count stars instead of sheep? Hmmmmmmmmm
bob
<< <i>81-S or 82-S? >>
Here's a pic a little to the left. There's an S on the rev. How do you know the date from the stars?
The original 1790s flowing hair dollars and the draped bust dollars that followed had "Liberty" and the year on the obverse, and "United States of America" on the reverse. If anything, they were too bare, as they did not even indicate their denomination. The size of the coin was the indicator, though that would eventually become an issue as the silver market fluctuated and coin sizes had to change.
The Liberty Seated dollar added "One Dol." to the back, but the design on the front incorporated "Liberty" into the devices, on a shield, rather than having it written out separately.
Trade dollars got a little busier, but they had to, as they were special purpose coinage that indicated their silver content. They are perhaps more like American Silver Eagles today than dollar coins, as both are face valued at one dollar but intended to represent a fixed amount of silver bullion. Neither were minted with the intent of circulating in the U.S. Gold dollars also enter circulation. As some of the tiniest coins ever put out by the U.S. Mint, they manage to keep the mandated text by having very simple devices--a Liberty portrait on the obverse and a wreath on the back. Fine-tuning these designs for such tiny coins does prove to be problematic, given that these coins are wafer thin and made of a very soft metal.
The Morgan dollar gets a little busier. "Dollar" is spelled out completely rather than abbreviated, and the motto "In God We Trust" is added to the reverse. First introduced to help overcome the emotional aftermath of the Civil War, it was the "God Bless America" of its time. (I'll avoid the Freedom of Religion / Separation of Church and State debate like the plague right now, as it's beside my point for this thread, and people tend to get touchy when talking about it. Indeed, that touchiness comes up within the context of my article below.) The motto is presented in an ornate old English script font, while the other mandated wordings are in plain block lettering. "Liberty" is again placed within the artwork of the devices, on Lady Liberty's crown.
Fast forward to 1921 and the Peace dollar. "In God We Trust" gets moved to the front to make room for "E. Pluribus Unum" on the back. "Liberty" is no longer part of the devices, but is instead artfully presented above Lady Liberty's crown. "Peace" is added, a third motto unique to this specific coin. Thankfully, it's only one extra word at the bottom of the reverse, as the top now has to have two rows of text to get it all in. The arrangement of the lettering may look busy, but the choice of fonts and overall presentation is very elegant, in keeping with the coin design renaissance that started with the Saint Gaudens gold and worked its way throughout the rest of coinage.
After a number of bumps, dollar coins see production again with the short-lived Eisenhower series. "Peace" gets taken off, along with the beautiful but rather suddenly startled Lady Liberty, in favor of a less abstract image of a real person. People soon miss the Lady, so they then mint the Anthony dollars, featuring a portrait of a real person lady, and indeed an advocate for womens' equality. But, these coins look too much like quarters from a distance, so they die off, to be replaced with Sacagawea dollars, also featuring an important historic lady, or at least a best guess as to how she appeared, complete with child. So far, the phrases have stayed pretty steady: "Liberty" and "In God We Trust" on the obverse, along with date and mint mark, and on the reverse "United States of America," "E. Pluribus Unum," and "One Dollar."
Here's where things get really messy. The Mint and Congress decide to mint the Presidential Dollar series, but can't give up minting Sacagawea dollars, so both get minted at the same time. The Presidential dollars attempt to cash in on the success of the Statehood Quarter series, by showing each past President in order, from Washington onward. The coins help us out by telling us the name and years in office on the obverse. To avoid too much clutter, the mottos "E. Pluribus Unum," "In God We Trust," and even the date and mint mark get relegated to the rim, while "One Dollar" becomes reduced to a text message-ish "$1." But, a massive public outcry comes from people who do not read coin rims, thinking that atheists are conspiring to remove "In God We Trust" from coins. To settle those fears, the motto is put back on the obverse, along-side the "Nth President Year X to Year X+Y, where Y equals either 4 or 8." Latin-speaking Ayn Rand Objectivists have yet to come forward to complain about the placement of "E. Pluribus Unum," but we numismatists are still forced to look for dates and mint marks along the rim.
Weirdly enough, the Sacagawea dollar also gets hit with a modification. A decision is made to make each year reverse different, honoring Native American heritage. Mottos like "Haudenosunee" are introduced to the reverse--an open invitation for the Google generation to look up words and learn some history, but also a reason to shove "E. Pluribus Unum" along the rim of the Sacagawea / Native American dollars as well. Strangely enough, the Mint also moves the date and mint mark there even on these coins, even though there was a perfectly good place for them on the obverse.
So, we went from "Liberty," Date, and "United States of America" in 1794, to "Millard Fillmore," "In God We Trust / 13th President, 1850 - 1853," "United States of America," "$1," and on the rim "E. Pluribus Unum," Date, and Mint Mark. At this point, the stars I'm seeing are now the ones when I blink.
Did not get to my point with all that dribble!
lol
bob
Ron
Edited: My mistake - Denticle under the center star not on the star.
<< <i>I like stars.
The stuff legends are made of.
Ron
<< <i>
<< <i>81-S or 82-S? >>
Here's a pic a little to the left. There's an S on the rev. How do you know the date from the stars?
Those two dates have the worst ejection doubling of the entire series, and the fields look to be a little PL. I figured it was most likely an 81-S and threw in 82-S for good measure.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
OLD THREAD
just for fun. was neat to see @mgoodm3 post
liked that AU started a thread about stars
LOVED seeing messy guess the date/mm from JUST 2.25 stars. lol
Heck, I forgot all about stars and relearned it all over, glad I posted!
bob
you started this thread about 60 days after i joined!
i thought i joined the forum much sooner after officially starting numismatics BUT i came across some stuff recently to remind me i was in numis around 2009 or a little earlier. SO it took me 1.5-2.5 years before i joined. i REALLY didn't think i waited that long so i'll lean towards 1.5 or so.
whatever i am good at in life, and some things really good at, i just suck at dates/timeframes.