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1861 Confederate Cent Sesquicentennial
EagleEye
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Hey, I don't know if they were struck on March 14, 1861, but I would guess they were struck in Robert Lovett, Jr's die making shop prior to the start of the war and after the Confederacy declared itself.
Edited to correct: 12 Copper nickels were struck in 1861, Haseltine struck more in 1874: Seven examples were struck in Gold, 12 in Silver, and 55 in Copper, upon which the dies broke.
I owned a copper one once. Anyone have one they care to post?
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Old CoinFacts Link.
Heritage auction link.
-Paul
Robert Lovett made this piece for the Marshall which was located in Alexandria, Virginia. At the beginning of the Civil War Elmer Ellsworth, who was a protégé of Abraham Lincoln, led a group of the soldiers who were assign to run the Confederates out of the area. He saw a Confederate flag flying over the Marshall House and ran up the stairs to tear it down. On his way down the stairs he was confronted by the owner of the hotel, a Mr. Jackson, who shot him dead with a shot gun. A union soldier dispatched Mr. Jackson to the next world.
Here is a Marshall House token, with the Confederate cent motif, that Robert Lovett made. Also here is a Civil War envelope that depicts the death of Elmer Ellsworth.
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Edited to correct: 12 Copper nickels were struck in 1861, >>
Other than the dealer selling them in the mid 1870s claiming and promoting, Where is this documented? You will have to forgive me if I require a little more than the story of a mysterious CSA officer coming all the way up north in war time to commission a coin for his government, paid for it while never taking them back or sending for them and the guy makes them but only 12 and keeps them until he is drunk in a bar and spends just one of them. Low and behold a coin dealer swoops in and saves the day all while making more but charging top dollar for the "originals" that are all the same die state and with no degradation to the die after a decade.
I want a sip of what the people who believe that story are drinking.
<< <i>I owned a copper one once >>
EagleEye- what became of the example you had? was it certified, and do you remember details about it?
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>Does anyone know what these Marshall House store cards typically sell for and how rare they are? >>
When I was dealer years ago, I used to sell examples in EF to AU-50 for $25 or $30. I imagine they are more expensive now. Pieces that were well struck on the reverse are worth a minor premium. They are not rare. I was able to get a regular supply of them from the late Steve Tannenbaum.
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<< <i>Does anyone know what these Marshall House store cards typically sell for and how rare they are? >>
When I was dealer years ago, I used to sell examples in EF to AU-50 for $25 or $30. I imagine they are more expensive now. Pieces that were well struck on the reverse are worth a minor premium. They are not rare. I was able to get a regular supply of them from the late Steve Tannenbaum. >>
Ok, thanks for the info!
<< <i>Like this? Looks to be copper nickel.
That is one of the Bashlow copies that were made from copy dies circa 1961. Robert Bashlow was a coin dealer who had them made at that time used the rusted and canceled dies to produce a working set of dies. They were made in several metals.
Time was people considered them "worthless" especially in the copper pieces, which are the most common. One New Jersey coin dealer I knew had many examples available at $6 each. Recently I've seen asking prices of $35 and more.
<< <i>OK Crypto the stage is all yours. Please tell us "how it all happened" from the comfort of your armchair 150 years later...... We are all ears. >>
Your condescending tone aside, I don't have anymore facts than anybody else but the story doesn't have any facts or even evidence behind it but yet it is widely accepted as true that these are somehow associated with the CSA despite not even having a shred of circumstantial evidence or a logical story behind it. The community requires so much more evidence for such things as proofs, specimens and die progression and in its nature is a scholarly research driven hobby.
With all of that said these have escaped the normal rigors and burdens of proof as I suspect because of the romantic nature of the memory of the Civil war for many and they fact that they fill a hole for the hobby that other than less than a handful of half dollars, doesn't have any other representation. I guess it is like religion as it requires a suspension of ones logic and a measure of unquestioning faith. Its a bridge to far personally for my tastes but collect what you like just don't get your panties in a bunch if someone raises the BS flag when they come up in conversation. If anybody does a little digging they will find
1: there is no record of connection to the CSA. Even something lose like the name of a requesting official, procurement request/receipt, letter or dairy entry mentioning them, known connection with and CSA official to any of the people/businesses known to be involved in the issue.
2: The maker was a petty criminal who was bankrupt in Philly at the time these came to light, His windfall came a decade after the war during a time where there was a large market for artifacts and traveling shows of veterans
3: The accepted story is a regurgitated story originally propagated by the man standing to profit the most from it ( the dealer) with lose and clearly embellished language.
4: No confirmed existence during the 1860s
5: And for the Numismatic inclined people: The die state from the "1861 coins and the 1874 "restrikes" is the exact same with not apparent degradation of the die with no rust or refinishing. The mint had a hard time keeping its dies from breaking down over just a couple of years but a drunk kept his in tip top shape?
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<< <i>I always liked the store card.
i always liked them as well
<< <i>
<< <i>OK Crypto the stage is all yours. Please tell us "how it all happened" from the comfort of your armchair 150 years later...... We are all ears. >>
Your condescending tone aside, I don't have anymore facts than anybody else but the story doesn't have any facts or even evidence behind it but yet it is widely accepted as true that these are somehow associated with the CSA despite not even having a shred of circumstantial evidence or a logical story behind it. The community requires so much more evidence for such things as proofs, specimens and die progression and in its nature is a scholarly research driven hobby.
With all of that said these have escaped the normal rigors and burdens of proof as I suspect because of the romantic nature of the memory of the Civil war for many and they fact that they fill a hole for the hobby that other than less than a handful of half dollars, doesn't have any other representation. I guess it is like religion as it requires a suspension of ones logic and a measure of unquestioning faith. Its a bridge to far personally for my tastes but collect what you like just don't get your panties in a bunch if someone raises the BS flag when they come up in conversation. If anybody does a little digging they will find
1: there is no record of connection to the CSA. Even something lose like the name of a requesting official, procurement request/receipt, letter or dairy entry mentioning them, known connection with and CSA official to any of the people/businesses known to be involved in the issue.
2: The maker was a petty criminal who was bankrupt in Philly at the time these came to light, His windfall came a decade after the war during a time where there was a large market for artifacts and traveling shows of veterans
3: The accepted story is a regurgitated story originally propagated by the man standing to profit the most from it ( the dealer) with lose and clearly embellished language.
4: No confirmed existence during the 1860s
5: And for the Numismatic inclined people: The die state from the "1861 coins and the 1874 "restrikes" is the exact same with not apparent degradation of the die with no rust or refinishing. The mint had a hard time keeping its dies from breaking down over just a couple of years but a drunk kept his in tip top shape? >>
From what I've learned, Lovett was a skilled die engraver and not simply a "petty criminal" (what did he even do that was criminal?) He engraved numerous store cards, medals, and other numismatic-related items, including several which are dated prior to the "confederate cent" which used the same minerva (french liberty) obverse design (which help prove that he was actively using that design in 1861 when the confederate cent was made.)
Also, the lack of official documentation from the confederate government does not prove or disprove that the cents where in fact a confederate government product: a tremendous amount of confederate documentation was destroyed, so any records or documents could easily have been burned.
You say no confirmed existence in the 1860's; if the Haseltine story is true, there wouldn't have been since Lovett didn't want the attention from government officials since he DID live in the North (people where shot for lesser reasons during the war.) There where other coin dealers around at the time who knew Lovett (I believe the coin dealer Idler had a store card made by Lovett.) If Haseltine has wanted to "make up the story", I think that logically he could've been much more creative and used sources which sounded more reliable but which where even more difficult to substantiate.
I also would add that there IS degradation in the dies. A couple (I don't know the exact number) of "original" confederate cents, I've heard, have NO die crack on the reverse wreath, whereas the others do. Also, all the Haseltine restrikes DO have the die crack (as mentioned by others earlier in this topic.)
You should read George Corell's and Harold Levi's book on the subject.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>OK Crypto the stage is all yours. Please tell us "how it all happened" from the comfort of your armchair 150 years later...... We are all ears. >>
Your condescending tone aside, I don't have anymore facts than anybody else but the story doesn't have any facts or even evidence behind it but yet it is widely accepted as true that these are somehow associated with the CSA despite not even having a shred of circumstantial evidence or a logical story behind it. The community requires so much more evidence for such things as proofs, specimens and die progression and in its nature is a scholarly research driven hobby.
With all of that said these have escaped the normal rigors and burdens of proof as I suspect because of the romantic nature of the memory of the Civil war for many and they fact that they fill a hole for the hobby that other than less than a handful of half dollars, doesn't have any other representation. I guess it is like religion as it requires a suspension of ones logic and a measure of unquestioning faith. Its a bridge to far personally for my tastes but collect what you like just don't get your panties in a bunch if someone raises the BS flag when they come up in conversation. If anybody does a little digging they will find
1: there is no record of connection to the CSA. Even something lose like the name of a requesting official, procurement request/receipt, letter or dairy entry mentioning them, known connection with and CSA official to any of the people/businesses known to be involved in the issue.
2: The maker was a petty criminal who was bankrupt in Philly at the time these came to light, His windfall came a decade after the war during a time where there was a large market for artifacts and traveling shows of veterans
3: The accepted story is a regurgitated story originally propagated by the man standing to profit the most from it ( the dealer) with lose and clearly embellished language.
4: No confirmed existence during the 1860s
5: And for the Numismatic inclined people: The die state from the "1861 coins and the 1874 "restrikes" is the exact same with not apparent degradation of the die with no rust or refinishing. The mint had a hard time keeping its dies from breaking down over just a couple of years but a drunk kept his in tip top shape? >>
From what I've learned, Lovett was a skilled die engraver and not simply a "petty criminal" (what did he even do that was criminal?) He engraved numerous store cards, medals, and other numismatic-related items, including several which are dated prior to the "confederate cent" which used the same minerva (french liberty) obverse design (which help prove that he was actively using that design in 1861 when the confederate cent was made.)
Also, the lack of official documentation from the confederate government does not prove or disprove that the cents where in fact a confederate government product: a tremendous amount of confederate documentation was destroyed, so any records or documents could easily have been burned.
You say no confirmed existence in the 1860's; if the Haseltine story is true, there wouldn't have been since Lovett didn't want the attention from government officials since he DID live in the North (people where shot for lesser reasons during the war.) There where other coin dealers around at the time who knew Lovett (I believe the coin dealer Idler had a store card made by Lovett.) If Haseltine has wanted to "make up the story", I think that logically he could've been much more creative and used sources which sounded more reliable but which where even more difficult to substantiate.
I also would add that there IS degradation in the dies. A couple (I don't know the exact number) of "original" confederate cents, I've heard, have NO die crack on the reverse wreath, whereas the others do. Also, all the Haseltine restrikes DO have the die crack (as mentioned by others earlier in this topic.)
You should read George Corell's and Harold Levi's book on the subject. >>
I have read just about all the material on these I can find including George Corell's and Harold Levi's book and I find it all just poorly researched.
This and Ambro response are valid opinions and more substantive than most people have on the issue so I will address it point by point. I went out of town on the first go around and wanted to address this again and would welcome any real thoughts on why this is truly creditable.
Starting with Ambro's point of Die state:
I was more talking about die treatment like polishing or lapping to treat the deterioration and formation of rust form leaving steel around humid Philly for a decade. As to the die break they are known on the part of the originals and the off metal ones referred to as the restikes. I think this can be caulked up to a poorly produced die/steel and or to much pressure in the press as it happened very early in the run or less than 100. The Harold Levi and George Corell book merely uses the crack as proof the Copper nickel cents came first in production and it is a leap of faith to assume that there was time in-between that striking and the gold and silver coins. I have held a few of the different coins a examined them for myself ( to include an original ) and it appears to my eyes to be the same dies on the same press just on different blanks that are affected by the tonnage differently. Have you actually formed your own opinion Ambro are you going off of other peoples words?The die state I refer to is the overall integrity of the die not the development of one crack on almost all of the coins.
The point of the story must be true because a lie would be more realistic in structure is a shotty argument at best. That logic doesn't fly with my kid and anyone who deals with the public knows that sometimes simple romantic stories work best. I will concede it all guess work but my point is the story has no evidence so why I should it accepted by default. The story was not widely accepted at the time and the coins held little value save for the 12 which fooled (IMO) just enough collectors(only 12 needed) to create a little demand and the "restrikes" languished. Time has patched over skepticism.
As for the die maker/ metal worker Robert Lovett, he was a drunk who had a list of petty crimes and while he was a skilled enough trades man to take other peoples designs and make a die, he would have credibility issues in a court of law at the very least
My point is while no one knows for sure including me about these, I find it strange that they are accepted by such an academic group of hobbyists as the default. I almost think it would be similar as a random dealer coming out with 12 of Carrs peace dollars struck on rare silver blanks with collars saying that he had found originals and not only that a die to make overstirkes. Coming up with a story of how D carr was approached by Johnson in 64 to make a new peace dollar and kept the die when the program was scraped. While I know D Carr isn't a crook and the dates and method of modern times doesn't work out I think my point is clear. These came out 10 years after the war and I am sure people associated with them at the time would have come forward or been sought out to market them if they were around.
Never trust sales people who are the only ones who will profit and don't accept it as history.
Can't remember the last time I saw an original strike auctioned, and the Haseltine restrikes seem to come up not very often either. The Bashlow pieces are of course very common.
<< <i>Crypto I assume you have read John J Fords monograph on the Confederate cent? I assume you have also read Eric Newmans comments? >>
Actually I haven't and will track them down. Everything I have is reprinted from the earlier study and or coin research on the coins themselves trying to get them to fit the story. I will see if I can read/get access the articles and get back.