Athenian Owl Thread
AuNuggets
Posts: 95 ✭
I thought it might be neat to start a thread dedicated to Athenian "Owl" coins, where discussions and information could be shared along with photos of some in our collections or just pieces that we see here and there on the internet. There is alot of history wrapped up in these little coins, and it's a real pleasure just holding one and studying the design detail. Please join in.
I'll start off with a few reverse designs. Although every one of them is different in detail, you can begin to "read" the stylistic characteristics of the period. These are all circa 454-415 BC, usually referred to as the "mass coinage" period. These are generally the types found in the large hoard recoveries. All of the coins shown have excellent detail and striking for the type.
I'll start off with a few reverse designs. Although every one of them is different in detail, you can begin to "read" the stylistic characteristics of the period. These are all circa 454-415 BC, usually referred to as the "mass coinage" period. These are generally the types found in the large hoard recoveries. All of the coins shown have excellent detail and striking for the type.
2
Comments
FOR SALE Items
The History of Athenian Owls
More often than not, banker-marked coins will show more overall wear because of the fact that marked coins circulated far beyond the boundaries of their country-state of issue. Most such markings were the result of authentication and/or re-monetization in other countries, and received their counter-marks there, rather than close to home where they were more readily recognizable and accepted.
The last piece shown here has a very well defined "W" bankers mark on the cheek of a nice uncleaned VF coin, a recent purchase from Morris Khouli. This is just one of those mid-grade pieces with tons of eye appeal, where the wear, originality, and bankers mark actually improve the overall appearance rather than deter from it, at least to my eye. If only coins like this one could talk, and tell you of its travels through the ancient world. While nice high-grade pieces are great to have in the collection, there is alot to be said for "experienced travelers" like this one..........
<< <i>Great thread!! >>
You beat me to it. I find the bankers marks to be especially fascinating. This alone would be an intriguing thread on its own.
I had a few questions, but as I dig through that link you provided earlier many of them are being answered. Lots to digest there. But maybe I could pose some topics you could perhaps enlighten us ignorants on...
Firstly, what size are these typically? I've seen tetradrachms anywhere from 22 to 28 mm. Is that right? Are there larger or smaller denominations in this style?
Also, the counterfeit page at the link you gave is great, but considering counterfeits are probably a chief cause of apprehension keeping many away from this series, could you post some info and images of what to look out for with the less obvious fakes. Even I can spot many on that page as bad, but surely there are more subtle fakes out there?
What are some typical prices ranges for these? What's reasonable to expect for an entry level, budget piece? Then, generally, what could one expect for one like the beauties you're posting?
Thanks again! Truly great stuff!
My wantlist & references
Identifying counterfeits of these, for the most part, is a matter of "something just don't look right". Maybe a little too simplistic, but that is the best way to describe it. But I need to add the caveat that there are some EXCELLENT struck counterfeits out there. Some of those are listed on the IBSCC Forgery Network website. Remember first, that it is impossible to be 100% absolutely sure just from a photo. You need the coin in hand. After determining that the basic characteristics are there by visual inspection, the obvious place to start is with the weight. These generally fall into a very tight range of around 17.0 to 17.2 grams in weight, but again with occasional variations on the high and low side. But seldom will you find one more than about a half gram out of that range. Now look more closely at the die and striking characteristics. Are there signs that the coin is actually "struck" vs. cast ? Are there "flow lines" extending from the reverse design field up into the raised rim areas ? Are the design devices sharp around the edges, or "muddy" and soft between the field and the device ? Watch the style of the lettering in AOE (alpha, theta, epsilon - the first three Greek letters of Athens). These letters are more likely to be rounded than squared off. As with any coin, watch the edges for seam marks or areas of filing where a casting sprue may have been removed. Look closely at the "fields" of the design, the flat surface area behind the devices. While the surface of the reverse owl side will normally be smooth, the obverse fields can often show what appear to be die gouges. This is simply an artifact of cutting the dies from a rough die blank. More finish detail appears to have been put into the reverse fields of these than the obverse fields. If there is "strike splitting" on the particular piece, try to see inside the split. Is the metal inside smooth or does it have a rough, almost sandy appearance ? It should have the later, because when the coin was struck, if there is pressure splitting present, it is partly a result of the crystallization of the metal as it separated. It should not be smooth where this separation occurred. But don't confuse test cuts or edge file cuts for strike splitting. Two very different things.
Just quickly, simply because a coin has a bankers mark or a test cut does not automatically mean it is genuine. Some contemporary fakes were known to have the test cuts made right into the forgeries as another ruse in passing these off as "tested and approved". In some instances, you will see real coins with multiple test cuts, showing that sometimes the testers were testing the testers so to speak.
I wonder if anyone ever determined if this one was real or not ? An amazing 6 different test cuts. You just have to ask yourself "WHY ??????"
Price wise, you should be able to find a nice "good" very fine example in the range of $700-$1000. Lesser grades, fine or so, can be had for something in the $500 range, sometimes less. It depends also on whether there are test cuts present or surface graffiti, either of which will reduce the value according to the severity. Banker's marks can either increase or decrease the value, depending on the placement, detail, and amount of distraction it causes to the overall design. Personally, I like those with the prominent banker's marks on the cheeks as shown in above photos, although I wouldn't pay a large premium to get one, or necessarily discount one by much because of it. As grades increase to nice extra fine, which is about the best grade on these with only rare exceptions, price/value really depends on several factors such as overall character, strike quality, good metal, centering of strike, whether Athena's helmet crest is fully visible (rarely the case), whether the design elements of the reverse or owl side are completely on the planchet (the E is almost always slightly off), strike splitting, toning, and so on. Two coins of the same technical grade might be thousands of dollars apart in price just based on variations in the above mentioned factors. This is why there is such a wide range of pricing on these, although I do notice alot of dealers pricing everything on the high side because of the overall popularity of this series. Shopping around at different dealer websites and checking the archives is a good way to get a feel for current values, remembering that every one of these coins is different, with it's own strengths and weaknesses. What you want is the greater number of strengths vs. the fewest number of weaknesses, but be prepared to pay accordingly. As far as those coins shown in the top photo, I would estimate the value of those 15 coins in the range of $40K, or an average of about $2600 per coin at todays market. Some will bring less, others considerably more for the very best examples.
I hope this will help answer some of your questions.
When was the last time that we awarded a DPOTD, here's a candidate that I strongly recommend.
These three are closing soon at CNG's auction. I believe that they are still terribly cheap, considering what they are and compared with moderns. This might change soon with the new laws though, so now would be a good time to buy IMHO.
Lot 27
251, Lot: 27. Closing Mar 09, 2011 at 10:09:00 a.m. ET. ATTICA, Athens. Circa 454-404 BC. AR Tetradrachm (22mm, 17.12 g, 9h). Helmeted head of Athena right / Owl standing right, head facing; olive sprig and crescent behind; all within incuse square. Kroll 8; SNG Copenhagen 31. Near EF..Estimate $500
Current Bid: $800
Bidders (9)
Lot 28
251, Lot: 28. Closing Mar 09, 2011 at 10:09:20 a.m. ET. ATTICA, Athens. Circa 454-404 BC. AR Tetradrachm (23mm, 17.14 g, 7h).Kroll 8; SNG Copenhagen 31. Good VF, light graffito ‘A’ on cheek.Estimate $300
Current Bid: $550
Bidders (10)
Lot 30
251, Lot: 30. Closing Mar 09, 2011 at 10:10:00 a.m. ET. ATTICA, Athens. Circa 454-404 BC. AR Tetradrachm (23mm, 17.15 g, 9h).Kroll 8; SNG Copenhagen 31. VF, small pit on obverse.Estimate $300
Current Bid: $425
Bidders (7)
edited to add: I'm having a problem with posting the images from CNG' site, so I hope that the links will work at least.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
Those above are three good "critique" coins that maybe I can use to help explain more about some of what I covered in earlier posts.
The top coin is nice, and I agree, under priced. The obverse looks to be struck from a very worn working die, you can see numerous areas of raised metal where the surfaces of the die are wearing away from use. It appears that perhaps the obverse die was not properly hardened after being engraved, causing some metal migration in the facial area. This is not an uncommon occurrence in these high-relief designs. There appears to be some corrosion/verdigris near the back of the neck and to the right of the owls head, but nothing major. The flan is nice and the metal itself looks to be good. This is a good example of what I discussed about the differences in the obverse and reverse fields. Notice how the reverse owl side fields are relatively smooth while the obverse fields are roughened, almost striated. This is a result of more detail attention spent to the reverse dies than the obverse, or perhaps there was some reasoning for the roughened fields when these were produced. I have never heard a plausible explanation though.
The second coin has more problems. Along with the "A" graffiti scratched into the cheek, there is considerable corrosion/verdigris on either side. Hard to tell from black&white photos the extent of how noticeable these areas are color wise, but these areas can be anything from brown to green to blue against the underlying color of the actual metal. These are the "gritty" areas to the right of the owls head and scattered around in the devices on the obverse side. Still a very presentable and respectable example for the price (subject to the closing bid of course).
The third coin has questionable metal, almost what looks like inter-granular corrosion or "crystallization corrosion", moreso to the reverse surfaces. This is caused by the baser metals leaching out of the coin over hundreds of years, and can actually make the coin itself unstable, even subject to breakage in worst-case scenarios. It looks to have a small "test stab" near Athena's earring, but nothing else in the way of damage issues. The reverse is struck from well worn dies, and you can see a couple of rather large die breaks near the owls tail and above its wing feathers. The corrosion appearance being on the reverse only could also indicate that the reverse die was just worn and granulated from use. The metal of the obverse actually looks much nicer, but depending on where this coin laid for hundreds of years, it is still possible to have corrosion to only one side of the coin while the other remains relatively unscathed. This coin displays well for the type.
All are good candidates for entry level pieces, and at decent prices. Above are just my observations as to what I see when looking at the images. It would be good to have higher resolution color photos in trying to judge these, but I realize CNG normally does not expend alot of effort on pieces they feel don't justify the time or attention. A great source of everything ancient as always though.
An added note on value. Whatever the reason, if the strike of the coin places Athena's nose or the tip of the nose off the planchet, collectors of these will discount the price, sometimes considerably. On the other hand, if there is full or near full crest showing on Athena's helmet, it can increase the value dramatically in the opposite direction. A well centered strike is always most desirable on the reverse, though seldom will "everything" be there. You will almost always see the tip of epsilon (letter "E") off the edge of the planchet. Ideally, the reverse strike would have raised rim metal on all four sides of an incuse square enclosing all of the design elements, while the obverse would show a full Athena sporting a full helmet crest. Very rarely will you ever find absolute complete and centered strikes on both sides, and these bring huge premiums. Here is a good example of a coin that is "almost" all there, good centering of both obverse and reverse, nearly a full crest and only bare parts of the design off the planchet. Coin grades a strong XF and priced by the seller at over $15,000 U.S.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Early Archaic ca. 510-480 B.C.
Early transitional classic ca. 480-454 B.C. (note the separated tail feathers)
Mass-coinage classic ca. 454-393 B.C. (single prong tail)
"Eye in profile" intermediate style after 393 B.C. A more refined obverse and cruder owl.
"New Style" ca. 168-50 B.C.
There almost appears to be the beginning of engraving of the "A" under and 90 degrees to the "E", as if the die cutter started to cut an "A" at that location before realizing he was working in correct orientation rather than in reverse as he should have been. On the other hand, this may just be die breaks or die wear.
Here is also an example of an early bronze hammer die and a later bronze Roman die.
<< <i>In some instances, you will see real coins with multiple test cuts, showing that sometimes the testers were testing the testers so to speak.
I wonder if anyone ever determined if this one was real or not ? An amazing 6 different test cuts. You just have to ask yourself "WHY ??????" >>
The above coin is indeed amazing. Great find. Some have suggested that multiple cuts like this were part of some kind of mint bookkeeping system, but I think they're just testimony to the abundance of fakes in ancient times, no less than today, and the need for vigilance, even if in this case it went overboard, but not uninterestingly.
<< <i>Here is a simplified visual diagram of the striking anvil and hammer dies as used to produce this type of coinage. The illustrated coin is an early Lydian electrum Trite or Hekte, one of the earliest known coin types dating back circa. 7th centruy B.C. and made of a natural alloy of gold and silver.
Good diagram. But I'm going to be picayune, which admittedly is inexcusable in that this isn't even about Owls. The evidence points to the earliest coins, these Lydian electrum pieces, being made not with natural electum but rather with electrum that had silver and copper added to it, creating a more durable alloy with a richer color and increasing the seigniorage profits earned by the Lydian king Alyattes.
<< <i>Not much to be said about this outstanding piece. Beautiful strike, good metal, no damage issues, and nice blue-gray toning.
The toning on the above piece appears to these eyes to be human-induced, i.e. artificial, as evidenced by the sharp transitions between the colors and the sparsity of the colors that precede cyan in the toning process -- yellow and magenta. This happens often when coins are dipped into a toning solution, with the color going all the way, and abruptly, to cyan in those areas where the solution has been allowed to maintain contact with the coin's surface for a given period of time.
All told, and in all seriousness, I found it really fun and interesting to read your thoughts about these coins and to look at the images you posted. You've spent the past four decades well. Only problem is, I want some of the coins you've illustrated here. Existential problem, with numismatics.
To any of those who've had their interest in ancient Athenian Owl tetradrachms, the most famous and recognizable of all ancient coins by lay people, piqued by AuNuggets as a result of his excellent efforts here, let me throw out a suggestion for a good first Owl, one that in my view occupies the sweet spot maximizing visual attractiveness and historical interest while minimizing cost: A fifth century Mass Owl (depicting Athena having a frontal or almond-shaped eye) that's in the VF or gVF range, that's well centered, that has a test cut in a place that doesn't immediately draw the eye to it, thereby not unduly detracting from the obverse or reverse design, and that doesn't have any other major problems.
Needless to say, as has been said, if you're not well versed in these, it's imperative to buy from a reliable source, either one you've heard of or one recommended to you by a reliable source. Modern fakes of these are no less a scourge than ancient fakes. The dealers at the ancient coin mall VCoins are one good place to look.
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
Toning wise, I learned long ago to never attempt to judge toning by a photo. There is so much that can (and usually is) missed in the photography process. You may be right about this one. Just one I came across on Vcoins and thought was a very nice example. Admittedly, the vast majority of these coins were cleaned at one time or another, so artificial toning or cabinet or "residual cleaning" toning tends to be a moot point IMO. This one appears to be the later to me. But toning, too, is a matter of much more than simply always occurring in one specific process or color spectrum. Would "any" toning that occurs after cleaning not be considered "human induced" ? Just a thought. I have always been drawn more toward nice old toned pieces as opposed to harshly over-cleaned, as they simply appear more original. Better yet, nice hoard pieces that have never seen the need for a cleaning at all beyond a good brushing in warm soapy water.
Not all of the coins shown are in my collection of course (but how I wish). Four decades of study have been fun, but everyday I feel I haven't seen more than the tip of the iceberg. That's what keeps it interesting.
Thanks for the comments. Much appreciated. Maybe we can talk you into doing a similar thread on the origins of coinage, covering the earliest Ionian and Lydian issues. I think most folks here would find that interesting too.
My first Athens Classical Owl Tetradrachm!
Greek Attic Athens Classical Owl Tetradrachm
Obverse:
Head of Athena right with beaded necklace,
three small upright olive leaves on front edge of Attic helmet
Reverse:
Owl leaning right, head facing, olive twig with two leaves and crescent moon
Legend AOE (Ethnic legend)
Struck c. BC 430
Weight: 17.18g
From Harlan J. Berk, Chicago
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
CNG also just listed 7 decent entry level pieces tonight. Worth a look.
CNG Owl Listings
<< <i>Coincidentaly I ordered my first Owl on March 1 and it arrived yesterday.
My first Athens Classical Owl Tetradrachm!
Greek Attic Athens Classical Owl Tetradrachm
Obverse:
Head of Athena right with beaded necklace,
three small upright olive leaves on front edge of Attic helmet
Reverse:
Owl leaning right, head facing, olive twig with two leaves and crescent moon
Legend AOE (Ethnic legend)
Struck c. BC 430
Weight: 17.18g
From Harlan J. Berk, Chicago
May I ask how he graded this coin?
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
EF
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Price realized $ 1100
Price realized $ 800
Price realized $ 450
When you look at the differences in strike, surfaces, environmental damage, style, and so on, the relative pricing structure starts to make some sense. But in the end, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and even lower technical grades can easily bring considerably more than a higher grade based on nothing but personal appeal. And that is part of the challenge and enjoyment of collecting something other than modern cookie-cutter coins that, for the most part, all look the same.
wishing the photo's were not so dark.
Counterfeits, etc.
Eye Appeal and more
The First Coins
General Collecting Information
Here's an example, a painted cut-coin pendant made from a 1973 Greek two drachmas coin:
You can put a chain around it to wear around the neck.
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
An enthusiastic bump. I just purchased my first owl today and found this information to remain as valuable as the day that it was first written. Seemed a shame to leave it buried after it had proven so helpful. Sorry if the bump is considered to be bad etiquette, but...
I don’t own one and I probably never will but I love the design at some point I want to get euros from every EU country which includes the Greek one euro.
What do you think of this one?
You tilt it in the light and multi-colored toning shows through.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
My classic owl. A little too shiny perhaps, but I like the strike and detail.
Hmm, of course we like the theme, but I don't know this to be authentic as there appears to be casting stigmata, loss of detail, etc.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I love owls
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.