1893-s Morgan dollar partial collar error - world's rarest Morgan dollar?

roadrunner

1893-s Morgan dollar partial collar error certified by NGC

This XF details 93-s Morgan was recently certified by NGC. It's pretty well cleaned or scrubbed, probably a net Fine. This type of error is not listed in the Red Book. It would seem to be a lot more common than a full brockage. So what kind of premium would something like this be worth on the key date of the series? Are there a couple deep pocketed Morgan error collectors out there that would fight to the death to own this coin?

I don't own the coin nor do I know who owns it. Dr. Fey suggests there are only a few hundred partial collars in existence for all Morgans. So on a 93-s this could be unique or nearly so.
But even if quite rare, is there a huge demand for an error that is nowhere near as visible as a DDO or DDR, off center strike, double struck, etc.?

What would one of these be worth in this condition if it were on a common date Morgan?

roadrunner

Rampage

I hate to say it, but for this date, I would prefer the non-error type. Don't get me wrong, the error is very cool and awesome, but it IS the key date for the series. Also, since it has been cleaned, that is a little bit of a turn off, but not nearly as much as being the key date.

roadrunner

Rampage, I would think the majority of regular collectors would probably agree with your view. But all it would take would be a couple of hardcore error collectors to enable such a coin to go to a relatively high price. Are there enough such collectors out there?

For myself, I'd rather have a damage free VF than the XF details error coin. But that's just me. I have no clue what the error coin is worth but would not be willing to gamble hoping it's a great rarity. A 30-50% off-center 93-s would be a great error rarity imo. Don't know what that that would be worth but I'd prefer that in scrubbed XF over a damage free VF.

roadrunner

CaptHenway

Wow! The ultimate white elephant!!!!

roadrunner

Aw, come on Tom, you can be more specific that that! After all it's getting national press exposure from that article.

Would it be worth more if sold on St. Swithins' day?

roadrunner

Rampage

<< <i>Rampage, I would think the majority of regular collectors would probably agree with your view. But all it would take would be a couple of hardcore error collectors to enable such a coin to go to a relatively high price. Are there enough such collectors out there?
roadrunner >>


Don't get me wrong, most folks who know me know that I am a a big error coin collector. Having said that, I would much rather own a problem-free XF partial collar Morgan for a few hundred dollars rather than a key date problem examples for multiples of thousands of dollars.

FredWeinberg

As Tom said, using my favorite expression
for this type of coin - It's an excellent example
of a 'Wite Elephant'.

My definition of that phrase, for numismatics,
is that the value of the coin (1893-S, cleaned
or not) FAR exceeds the value of the coin
as a partial collar Morgan Dollar.

My take on it is that the coin will be purchased
by a Morgan dollar collector, and probably not
by an error collector...but that's just my view.

It's neat, it's unique, it's a dollar - but the error
collector who would pay a discount from the
coin's 'normal' value, or a premium, is about as
rare as the coin itself.

However, I can see a Morgan Dollar collector
who would love to have a mechanical error on
a rare-date Morgan......and that is unique for the date.

partagas

Most error collectors won't pay premiums for better date coins. Cause they just want the error, not the date.

roadrunner

Thanks for the inputs guys. Lucky to have Fred around to offer his view as well.

Was kinda suprised there wasn't at least one person taking the line that the coin was worth as much as a problem free XF. But I have no horse in the errors game.
Just wanted to feel out the reasonings behind the viewpoints.

roadrunner

coindeuce

I disagree with your reported assessment by Fey of the numbers of extant partial collar Morgans. I would expect that if he were so certain that the numbers were limited to only a few hundred, that he would have some scientific or statistical analysis data to back that up. I'll counter his reported opinion with my own conjecture that the numbers actually approach 500-1000.

roadrunner

Are there enough of these partial collars around to complete a full Morgan date and mint set?

I don't have any clue as to the number remaining and was just passing along what Dr. Fey said in that article...which was "several hundred." To me that could mean as high as 500, but probably not 1,000.

roadrunner

FredWeinberg

No, there are not enough of them to make a date/mm set.

Most dates & mintmark combos do NOT exist -

The most common are 1921's, many "S" Mints, and then
the "O" mints from the 1880's era. I've seen 1878-S,
CC's, and various other years and Mints, but as mentioned,
MOST dates/mm combo's are not known with this error.

There are some with 5-10 known, and many with just
1-2-3 known.

It's impossible to know how many Partial Collar Morgans
do exist, but if "A Few Hundred" means up to 250 or so,
I would take that number rather than the 500-1,000 number.

That's just my view/take on the number known.

tradedollarnut

Taken to the extreme, it seems obvious that an 1804 dollar with an error would bring LESS than an 1804 dollar without an error.

But then again, for some strange reason the Brasher Doubloon with a random punch on the breast instead of the field has been promoted to be worth significantly more....so who knows.

coindeuce

<< <i>Taken to the extreme, it seems obvious that an 1804 dollar with an error would bring LESS than an 1804 dollar without an error.

But then again, for some strange reason the Brasher Doubloon with a random punch on the breast instead of the field has been promoted to be worth significantly more....so who knows. >>



TDN, I see your point as it relates to the 1804 Bust Dollar, but the example cited regarding the Brasher Doubloon is irrelevant. There is no comparing Mint Error features which are incidental, to a hallmark punch applied by design after the coin is released from the source of minting.

DennisH

Partial collar coins mean nothing to me.
Problem coins mean close to nothing, other than bullion.

A collar error 1893-S with serious originality problems is nothing more than a curiosity to me. To each their own of course, but beyond about $100 I just don't care. Really.

tradedollarnut

<< <i>

<< <i>Taken to the extreme, it seems obvious that an 1804 dollar with an error would bring LESS than an 1804 dollar without an error.

But then again, for some strange reason the Brasher Doubloon with a random punch on the breast instead of the field has been promoted to be worth significantly more....so who knows. >>



TDN, I see your point as it relates to the 1804 Bust Dollar, but the example cited regarding the Brasher Doubloon is irrelevant. There is no comparing Mint Error features which are incidental, to a hallmark punch applied by design after the coin is released from the source of minting. >>



I disagree as I think that you may have missed the point that promotion and the human mind can often overcome logic.

roadrunner

<< <i>Taken to the extreme, it seems obvious that an 1804 dollar with an error would bring LESS than an 1804 dollar without an error.

But then again, for some strange reason the Brasher Doubloon with a random punch on the breast instead of the field has been promoted to be worth significantly more....so who knows. >>



Why not the 1848 "CAL" quarter eagle as well. But let's face it. A Brasher or CAL punch are far different historically than a tilted collar/railroad rim.

And I'm not so sure that an error 1804 could not be worth a premium. But we're not discussing major rarities, just a key date in a popular series with thousands known.

roadrunner

MGLICKER

<< <i>No, there are not enough of them to make a date/mm set.

Most dates & mintmark combos do NOT exist -

The most common are 1921's, many "S" Mints, and then
the "O" mints from the 1880's era. I've seen 1878-S,
CC's, and various other years and Mints, but as mentioned,
MOST dates/mm combo's are not known with this error.

There are some with 5-10 known, and many with just
1-2-3 known.

It's impossible to know how many Partial Collar Morgans
do exist, but if "A Few Hundred" means up to 250 or so,
I would take that number rather than the 500-1,000 number.

That's just my view/take on the number known. >>



I would guess that more than 250 Morgan's exist with a Partial Collar error. I have seen maybe 50 at auction over the years. If "known" means in a slab, this estimate may be correct. Including coins in long time sets where only the collector is aware of the error, a number in the high 100's seems more likely.

coindeuce

This one never ceases to amaze me. Have never seen or heard of another of this date/variety.

MGLICKER

Nice first year error, Coindeuce. Though quality Morgan's are quite plentiful, versus the mintages, the errors are quite scarce.

MrEureka

But then again, for some strange reason the Brasher Doubloon with a random punch on the breast instead of the field has been promoted to be worth significantly more....so who knows.

I would not assume the center punch was random. The unique piece is the only one known from the (by far) earliest known die state. Most likely, Brasher intentionally changed the punch location somewhere in the middle of the production run, creating two distinct types. Regardless, I will forgive Dansco if they do not create two separate holes in the album.

Sorry to go OT, but I take my Brashers seriously.

BillJones

If I were collecting Morgan dollars by date and mint mark, I would not want this coin. I would want a "normal" coin. The same applies for me for my type set. If an off-center 1796 No Stars quarter eagle cropped up to fill the last hole in my set, I would pass on it.

Nickcap

As a Morgan collector, I have two errors. One is a rotated die 1878-CC and the other is in the VAM series I am putting a grading set together with.

My VAM grading set has another coin for the same grade.

I would not fill my Morgan set key dates with a mint Error. I just don't think it will improve my chances to resale later.

TwoSides2aCoin

… whoa
needle in a thread is like a needle in a haystack.

leothelyon

Most off center or out of collar strikes will show some of the most powerful detailed strike a coin can receive. By that, the details are extremely sharp, more so than on the regular strikes. For that reason, such coins added tremendous knowledge of the quality of coin I wanted in my collection.
If you look at my set, almost every coin has defied the myth, if there ever was one, that every coin can be located with an EDS strike. And an error like the OP coin proves that the details were in the dies.


Leo

To add; although the article doesn't show the coin well.