Would you give an eBay seller a negative or neutral for this?

Bayard1908

This is not a big deal; but, I wanted to gauge my reaction against the standard of a reasonable collector.

I recently bought an untoned 1963 PR66 proof set in an NGC multicoin holder on eBay. Only the obverses of the coins were shown in the auction.

When I received the coins yesterday, I saw that there was a prominent spot on the reverse of the half dollar, the most desirable coin in the set. I sent the seller a quick email about the spot, mainly to see what his reaction would be. I thought he might say something like, "I'm not a coin expert, sorry." I would have been perfectly fine with such a response. At the time, I had no intention of either leaving negative feedback or returning the coins. Here's the email reply I received from the seller:

"HELLO MY FRIEND!
MY LOSS,YOUR GAIN.
I PAID TWICE THE AMOUNT THAN YOU DID FOR THIS SET,ALSO IN THE SAME CONDITION.
SO,I TOOK A LOSS ON MY INVESTMENT!DON'T FEEL BAD ABOUT A MINOR DETAIL.
I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND ME,BUT ALL SALES WERE FINAL."

I don't believe I've left negative feedback for years; however, something about this email really rubs me the wrong way. I almost interpret it as saying "Shut up and don't bother me, I foisted a spotted coin off on you." I don't know if the seller is a jerk or just has limited English ability. If it makes any difference, I think I could relist the set on eBay with the spot fully disclosed and sell it for more than I paid. The spot is sufficiently bothersome to me that I have no intention of keeping the coins.

Coinlearner

Recently I bought a 1/2 dime and the seller "forgot" to disclose it was BENT...Cheap coin, not worth return postage/time so I gave a positive and wrote about sellers' lack of disclosure in feedback comments.........Later someone bought the bent coin for twice the price off me. Still do not know why.. ............Edit to add this seller only 15 feedback so figured he was just learning the ropes.

clackamas

That guy is a Jerk.

USAFRETWI

Just the guy's attitude would make me think hard about a neg.

Ken

taxmad

Many sellers complain about having to leave positive or nothing, yet don't leave a true picture of their buying experience when they have the chance. You are telling potential customers about your experience buying this item. If you don't leave a neg or a neutral, when it was a negative experience or a neutral when it was, what is the point of having that option available?

The guy dumped a coin that had flaws he deliberately didn't disclose and basically is telling you to suck it. If it was still a good buy, then go neutral. If you are out money, neg him. I have done both...

PerryHall

I think his story that he lost money on the deal is not relevant. Heck, it may not even be true. I think there was a reason that he didn't show a reverse pic. If you're not happy with your purchase, a positive wouldn't be appropriate. Possibily a neutal would be appropriate here since the condition of the coin wasn't fully disclosed.

magikbilly

Hi Bayard1908,

I am trying to understand this with no link to the auction. You bid on coins w/o seeing the Reverses in an auction with No Returns stated, or was that only mentioned in the post-delivery email?

Edited to add - "MY LOSS,YOUR GAIN" he says, and you say you can sell it with disclosure and make money?

Best,
Eric

vann

Ebay policy requires a seller to show an accurate front/back picture of the coins in the holder. I think his response indicates he was trying to pass his problem onto someone else since he accepts he knew the spot was there and didn't disclose it. His profit or loss on the transaction has nothing to do with not describing what he is selling accurately so at the very least I would leave a neutral especially since he won't accept a return.

coinguy1

I wouldn't bid above sight-unseen money on an item that didn't show images of both sides. Or, I would have asked the seller about seeing reverse images, before biding. In fact, aren't "certified" coin listings supposed to include images of both sides?

Based on the above and his response (which irritated me, as well) I would probably leave neutral feedback.

thisnamztaken

I never buy eBay coins without seeing good pix of both sides of the coin or at least emailing them a question about the reverse before bidding.
That being said, in the case you have mentioned I think his response was insensitive at best and rude or defiant at worst, and I would be very irritated with his response at best and quite mad and offended at worst.

coastaljerseyguy

I thought EBAY was going to force all coin auctions to have a picture of both sides. Not sure why this never went into effect.

I left neutral feedback recently to a seller who hid a long scratch in his photo. He also had a no return policy. The netral feedback was to warn future buyers to beware of seller, more than to give me satisfaction. Usually no one reads positive feedback past the first couple, so it doesn't matter what you write with positive after a few days. But I search out neutral and negative feedback if there is any.

If the spot is as prominant as you say and makes the coin undesirable, I would lean towards the seller purposely not having a photo of reverse and dumping the coin on the unsuspecting. The 2nd photo is only .25C more. I never trust a seller with only 1 photo.

Maybe reply to his email you are going to leave neutral/negative feedback and see if he'll reconsider his no-refund policy.

heavymetal

Is not bidding on a "no return" item with incomplete images a high risk venture? You took a chance on "buying the holder" and played into the hands of the seller. Look at other items that the seller has or had listed. If his items all have obverse and reverse pictures, you can assume he knowingly took advantage of you. Ultimately though, the fault is yours.

airplanenut

Well, I definitely don't like the tone of his email, which I agree basically says "you did better than I did, so leave me alone." However, before I jump to a full conclusion, it would help to see:

-The email you sent
-A photo
-The listing/description

I'm inclined to say a neutral. Depending on what exactly was said in the description, you could file SNAD. Of course, there is still some blame to be had for buying sight-unseen, unless a written description negated any problems you later found.

WinPitcher

I assume you paid with PP? If so, he SNAD. File with PP and he will be forced to
refund. You will have to pay for the return shipping though.

If you can resell it and make $ with full disclosure, do that.


To answer your question, I'd probably leave a positive and ding the appropriate star.

(That's if he refunded) If I was forced to get my refund I'd probably leave a neut.


Steve

WinPitcher

One other point, no returns is basically meaningless in this ebay environment.

Ebay is almost an approval service. All it takes is one mistake by the seller and a SNAD can be filed and won.


Steve

MadMax67

His reply was cold and had a bad attitude to it, if i were in your shoes he would most definately get a negative and i would list the coins on ebay with full disclosure, i don't mind giving negative feedbacks to sellers that deserve them ,but that is just me -

crypto79

You shouldn't care so much IMO

mrcoin3

Why didn't you ask questions about the reverse picture before you bid??
A spot doesn't necessarily take the coin out of MS66 territory.

SportsModerator

Pfft! Forget the coin, I'd neg him for his lousy attitude.

WinPitcher

Hey LTNS!

RichieURich

I think that deliberately not disclosing a significant defect in a coin, then hiding behind a "no returns" policy, should not be rewarded. Therefore, even though the OP bears some responsibility for this situation, if I were the OP I would give a negative feedback.

Barndog

if you decide to neg the seller rather than pursue through the SNAD route AND you ever sell, be sure to block him and all of his other ebay IDs and those of his friends

max42565

The real question is why would you buy it without at least seeing a really good picture of both sides without a return period. Personally I would only buy a coin wth no return,if I personally examine it first. Neg him if you want but it is your own fault.

mrpotatoheadd

There's no excuse for rudeness, but unfortunately, this appears to be Episode 2,145,776 of the "eBay Problems That Could Have Been Easily Avoided, But Weren't" series.

Series to resume shortly, no doubt.

fiveNdime

a negative is warranted, just from the attitude.
had he been responsive to it, i would only elevate it to a neutral.

as otheres have said... learn from the experience.

Colorfulcoins

I think you need to divorce his commentary from the transaction......if you were unhappy about the transaction itself (price/coin) - which seems you were given the rev 50c spot, and you feel the seller didn't post a pic in an attempt to hide the flaw (again, you're guessing what he did/didn't do) then something less than a positive might be called for if you are unhappy and feel deceived (and w/o recourse).

Now to his email......what a piece of work. Obviously he got taken and he isn't hiding that you got taken like him but with less $$$ out of pocket. Clearly he knew of the spot. Of couse, the great majority of sellers on ebay avoid details like the plague........bent, damaged, corroded, cleaned etc......for circ coins, I bet less than 10% of raw coins are even semi close to accurately described....usually NO DESCRIPTION....you buy what you see and if the pics are bad, you wait and see....and the seller hopes you are some newbie who doesn't know better and won't complain....but this guy, he knows better and isn't afraid to tell you so. BUT, do you consider his comments are part of the transaction or not? Technically they may not be but do you let that color your feedback?

If were me, I'd give him a Neutral and VERY clearly state in the feedback your concern about how the seller does business.

greghansen

The seller 'deserves' a negative with that attitude, but I wouldn't give it to him. He/she won't be in business long with that type of incendiary response to customers. I'd take the higher road and give him very mediocre grades in the star ratings. Then I'd make sure I never did another transaction with him/her again...ever.

On little problems like this, I've always thought that if you can learn a persons true colors and character and it only costs you a little money...it's money well spent. Your way ahead of the game! You've identified a person you want nothing to do with in the future for very little cost.

Just think of all the Madoff victims or other people who had to wait until they lost a LOT of money before learning they're dealing with bad folks.

Trust me, you'll feel better in a week about NOT giving him negative feedback even though he/she has done all they can do to earn it. Move on and be the better person. Just my opinion.

Fairlaneman

When ebay starts having auctions for "Seller Attitude" only then I will think about giving out negs for attitude. He delivered, you said you would keep the set, give him feedback on the sale not his attitude. Pretty simple I think.

Ken

Bayard1908

<< <i>The real question is why would you buy it without at least seeing a really good picture of both sides without a return period. Personally I would only buy a coin wth no return,if I personally examine it first. Neg him if you want but it is your own fault. >>



The amount of money involved is trivial, and I'm a big fan of pre-1968 proof sets in the NGC multicoin holder.

OPA

<< <i>Positive with 1's for description and a 1 for communication OR a neutral with same DSR's.

Does not quite make negative material. >>



That's very reasonable...btw..a reverse picture is not required for modern coins issued after 1964 or 1984...I forgot which year it is. A SNAD is definitely in order for that sale..seller was not in compliance with eBay guidelines.

Fairlaneman

<< <i>Positive with 1's for description and a 1 for communication OR a neutral with same DSR's.

Does not quite make negative material. >>



You just had a thread about 1's and 2's and now you turn around and say something like this. Geez. Ding the guy some but 1's?

Ken

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>A SNAD is definitely in order for that sale... >>

Sounds like the initial complaint is that the coins *weren't* described. Unless the seller said the coins were spot free (or, for that matter, a link to the listing for starters), how can they be "significantly not as described" if there was, indeed, no description?

Just wondering...

quattrocoins

<< <i>

<< <i>Positive with 1's for description and a 1 for communication OR a neutral with same DSR's.

Does not quite make negative material. >>



You just had a thread about 1's and 2's and now you turn around and say something like this. Geez. Ding the guy some but 1's?

Ken >>



Apples to oranges.

The 1's that Craig received were totally unwarranted.

This guy definitely deserves them!

Hell, Craig was being lenient with him...I'd neg him too!

WinPitcher

Scott


Can an NGC proof 66 have spots? If so then I agree an SNAD is not warranted.

If NGC standards say a PF 66 can't then (it turned while in the holder) in that way it was an SNAD.

Is that possible?


Steve

OPA

<< <i>

<< <i>A SNAD is definitely in order for that sale... >>

Sounds like the initial complaint is that the coins *weren't* described. Unless the seller said the coins were spot free (or, for that matter, a link to the listing for starters), how can they be "significantly not as described" if there was, indeed, no description?

Just wondering... >>



Seller did not supply a reverse scan as required by eBay on a 1963 minted item.

mrpotatoheadd

With the understanding that I'm not defending the seller or his sales techniques, if the coin(s) turned in the holder, that's an issue for the coins' owner to take up with NGC.

I don't generally sell slabbed coins, but I will tell you this- when I do, I am not going to guarantee that a coin in a *MSwhatever* holder will reholder in that same grade.

edited to add...

<< <i>Seller did not supply a reverse scan as required by eBay on a 1963 minted item. >>

Apparently not. Ignoring an eBay policy is not the same as misdescribing something, however.

tydye

Why is it that just about everyone who types in caps lock is an AO

roadrunner

I would treat the seller the same way I would expect to be treated if I were in his shoes. And I'd expect a neg.

I'd neg him in a heartbeat if he didn't accept the return. Already had the same situation occur to me where the reverse photo of a MS66 RD NGC lincoln had some areas that weren't visible the way the photo was taken. And in those areas was a large fingerprint with some spots as well.

Everyone on ebay has >98% feedback. That fact that buyers won't give out negs when warranted is why the system is basically useless. There's way to much coddling of sellers on ebay. What other business in the world has an average of >99% buyer/consumer satisfaction. It should be the exception for sellers to have FB>95%. What's rare is sellers with FB<98%. One shouldn't have to consult toolhaus for every seller with FB between 98-99.9%. But it's a good idea.

roadrunner

airplanenut

<< <i>btw..a reverse picture is not required for modern coins issued after 1964 or 1984 >>

1980

IHC08

Neg & SNAD. I almost never give negs or even neutrals and I've never once forced a seller to return my money through SNAD or another complaint, but from his email he knew about the spot and intentionally hid the problem. IMO failure to describe a known problem is the same thing as mis-describing the item, therefore SNAD applies.

If he agrees to the refund, he gets a neutral.
If he doesn't (whether or not ebay rules in your favor & you get your money back) he deserves a neg.


I know this is America and Greed is Good, but lying (which includes intentionally omitting known problems) is wrong.

OPA

<< <i>

<< <i>btw..a reverse picture is not required for modern coins issued after 1964 or 1984 >>

1980 >>



Well, I was close

vann

Certified Coins Policy

morgandollar1878

I am not sure what I would do as far a neg or neutral, but if he did not have pics of the reverse and also does not allow retruns then something tells me that something fishy is going on. That being said, I would not have bid on the item. It's pretty obvious to me that he knew what he was doing even though it was against ebay requirements. The spot should have been disclosed either way. I think I would contact him again and then file a claim if he does nothing about it. Ebay can force them to take the item back and issue a refund since it sounds like it was a deceptive sale and did not follow their rules. I know that it might be a small amount paid for the item, but it's the pricipal of the whole thing. Save your emails between the two of you, it proves that he knew about the spot.

Bochiman

This auction on ebay?

Where the seller states:
THE GUESS WORK IS ALL DONE.
N.G.C.CERTIFIED MULTIHOLDER.
WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET.
BID NOW AND TAKE THIS BEAUTY HOME.

He was purposely deceptive if he knew the mark was there, wasn't happy with it, and was selling to get rid of it.

I wouldn't have bid but I could see others bidding....trusting in the holder and the seller, even though he says "no returns".

Since he says it's a "beauty", and you are saying it isn't, and he also says "what you see is what you get" but there reverse wasn't shown and you got that with a bad coin, I would file the SNAD since you have already contacted him and he effectively flipped you the bird on it.

That said, his auction wording above is pretty boilerplate for him. Look at his other auctions. He is a lazy seller and likely deceptive from what happened to you. He is selling other multi sets with only the obv showing and pre-1980 coins. His auction style, and wording, would have turned me off.

joecopper

I would neg him.

Studio60

<< <i>Why didn't you ask questions about the reverse picture before you bid??
A spot doesn't necessarily take the coin out of MS66 territory. >>

A spot is the reason why a modern proof is in the 66 arena.

RYK

Why someone would bid on such an auction and not expect to get hosed is beyond me.

Frankcoins

Toning spots on the silver coins are a minor problem, and figured into the grade. NGC usually grades these sets 68 if they are eye-clean. You bought a certified set under sight unseen conditions...for less than wholesale...AT AN AUCTION (which are NOT approval sales) and want to NEG the seller???

RYK

<< <i>Toning spots on the silver coins are a minor problem, and figured into the grade. NGC usually grades these sets 68 if they are eye-clean. You bought a certified set under sight unseen conditions...for less than wholesale...AT AN AUCTION (which are NOT approval sales) and want to NEG the seller??? >>


I think the OP was looking for a rip and was disappointed that he got what he paid for.

That said, the seller seems pretty slimey. I would neg him for the sport of it.

roadrunner

Toning spots on the silver coins are a minor problem, and figured into the grade. NGC usually grades these sets 68 if they are eye-clean. You bought a certified set under sight unseen conditions...for less than wholesale...AT AN AUCTION (which are NOT approval sales) and want to NEG the seller???

You bet.

And if back in the 1970's and 1980's the leading coin auction houses had a feedback system for auction mail bidders, I would have left a number of negs along the way.
I could care less if they aren't "approval" sales. A con is a con. And the fact that coins are now in slabs doesn't change the con...I mean coin.

One of my favorite "spotted" NGC coins is a MS65 1871 half. It has a fairly large and obnoxious reverse carbon spot. Over the past 9 yrs it's been to auction more times than I can count...and for good reason. The fact that it has a 65 grade and the spot was "netted" in because the coin was "eye-clean" doesn't change anything. Imagine if the coin was only photographed from the obverse? It's hardly a minor problem.

roadrunner

LouisCamp

Now you know why it was a PR66 set.

Lou