Coin Silver vs Coin Silver

llafoe · February 23, 2011 2:20AM

Why do silver coins tone differently than coin silver silver... platters, teapots, etc. Has anyone ever seen a teapot, platter, silverware, etc., tone like a silver coin? The teapots, silverware, platters, etc., have all been stored in different mediums; wood, cardboard, cloth of most types, etc. EVERY piece of coin silver silverware, teapots, platters, etc., that I've seen has toned either dark brown or black. They're both 90% silver. Why do coins tone differently... or do they?

Why do coins that have a bigger market for toned coins have more toned coins and those that don't have a market for toned coins have fewer toned coins? Why did early coin collectors dip "toned" coins... were they naturally toned with that dark brown, black toning? Would earlier collectors have dipped the rainbow toners if they naturally toned with rainbow colors in the golden days?

Are toned coins a manifestation of the current market or are they naturally occuring?

mkman123 · February 23, 2011 2:34AM

I believe silver teapots, etc are sterling silver which is .925 silver while coins are .900. A small difference like that could make a difference in toning? Would love to hear what everyone else has to say.

vann · February 23, 2011 2:36AM

The silver content in both types of items is almost the same. The main reason some silver coins naturally tone different is due to the environment they are stored in (ie canvas bags, albums, etc) which let off gases that react with the coins to cause the toning. The other reason they tone differently is because silverware is routinely polished which exposes a fresh layer of silver instead of coins which are mostly left alone to develop a natural protective patina. If you were to polish some silverware and a silver coin at the same time and leave them side by side they would tone the same.

iceman0xh · February 23, 2011 2:40AM

If a coin silver teapot from the 1800s was put into a cardboard holder and kept there for years it might tone similarly

ebaytrader · February 23, 2011 2:46AM

Come to think of it I've never seen monster toning on coin silver hollowware, flatware, etc, but that old gold & tobacco brown color is common if not predominate. Gotta be storage methods plus that stuff has been cleaned numerous times with a multitude of methods over the years that, similar to the rinse thought to inhibit nice Peace $ toning, has imparted a long term inhibitor.

ebaytrader · February 23, 2011 2:47AM

Haven't seen any nicely toned 800 fine either.

llafoe · February 23, 2011 11:00AM

I stopped by a local B&M in Indy today. I covertly looked at all their toned silver... ALL of it had the brown/black rim toning, overall toning... NONE of it had rainbow toning. When I purchased the last large collection, the majority of it was stored in Dansco or Whitman albums... untouched for 37 years and stored in a safe deposit box. NONE of it had anything more than brown/black rim toning... NONE OF IT! If it takes 37 unfettered years to obtain rim toning... how many years does it take to obtain rainbow toning?

Baley · February 23, 2011 11:05AM

There's not one answer;
each coin or silver item is the unique product of the specific alloy mix, the handling it receives and contact materials it's exposed to, and their interaction with the environmental elements over time

llafoe · February 23, 2011 11:08AM

<< There's not one answer;
each coin or silver item is the unique product of the specific alloy mix, the handling it receives and contact materials it's exposed to, and their interaction with the environmental elements over time >>

Great answer... which political office do you hold?

My question is... how many of the colorful toned coins are original? From my experience, a rainbow coin is VERY rare. If that's true, why are there sooooo many for sale in the market?

GrumpyEd · February 23, 2011 11:10AM

It also might matter that most of those non coin items were polished/buffed when they were made.

JRocco · February 23, 2011 11:11AM

I also believe that the finish greatly effects the toning.
Luster is actually caused by the movement of the metal during the striking of the coin
and this is a different surface than a proof coin or a silver spoon. It is even different than a
circulated coins surface hence why the toning on a dipped circ coin is so much
different than the toning on an un-dipped MS piece.

Baley · February 23, 2011 11:11AM

is that a rhtorical question, or are you trying, as Socrates would, to draw out the answer you seek: that people are making them at home on purpose

llafoe · February 23, 2011 11:33AM

<< is that a rhtorical question, or are you trying, as Socrates would, to draw out the answer you seek: that people are making them at home on purpose >>

It's not rhetorical... I'm asking why do coins tone differently... surface preparation may play a role, but why is it when I was a child coin collector that all toned coins had that brown/black rim toning/overall toning (hence dipping prevalence) and when I went to the local B&M today, all the coins had the same toning? Have all the rainbow toned coins migrated to collectors of rainbow coins and removed from the general marketplace? If it takes 37 years to obtain brown/black toning, it must take longer to obtain rainbow toning. If all the toned coins were dipped in the 1970s and earlier, who preserved all the untouched coins with rainbow toning in the 1970s and earlier?

I'm asking if there are truly any natural rainbow toners... if there are, are they the simple brown/black toning with rainbow secondary toning or were they created by adding an additive (the chemical from dipping) whose residue created the rainbow toning? Are the toned coins "real" or were they created for a specific market?

A dealer had some 1950s mint/proof sets... all the original coins had dark toning (brown, black, blue)... it was irregular, speckled... NONE had attractive toning. Another dealer had a Whitman album with Roosevelt dimes... ALL dimes were present from 1946-1964; stored for 46 years. All but one of the dimes had the brown/black rim toning, the one exception had black rim toning with approximately 35% rainbow toning. It wasn't all that attractive, but it had the most appeal.

My question is... aside from end-roll toning (which has a definite look and would generate a low # of toners) and bag toning (which has a different definite look and aren't that prevalent), and album toning (again, a low percentage of all album coins would have album toning), how are there so many toners available for sale? Where do the really attractive toners come from? A naturally toned coin should have a brown/black origination point.

I think PCGS and the sniffer is helping... I've seen AT'd coins in PCGS slabs with a lot more in NGC slabs, has anyone seen any AT coins in PCGS Secure Plus slabs?

UtahCoins thread shows what I think naturally toned silver coins should look like... foundation of brown/black/blue with secondary color.

MsMorrisine · February 23, 2011 11:51AM

There's the 90% silver, the .925 sterling silver and the pure silver. ASEs are .999.

It does make one think about the reasons why silverware, etc. goes black.

mdwoods · February 23, 2011 11:54AM

<< Haven't seen any nicely toned 800 fine either. >>

Some Canadian silver coins tone nicely.

TomB · February 23, 2011 12:20PM

Most old silverware has been cleaned, buffed and polished many times with a variety of compounds. Also, I'm not certain that silverware was produced with die lines that would create luster and help to impart the color of toning.

Justacommeman · February 23, 2011 12:30PM

<My question is... how many of the colorful toned coins are original? From my experience, a rainbow coin is VERY rare. If that's true, why are there sooooo many for sale in the market?>

Man, I see it just the opposite. I see soooo little for sale. I rarely see any rainbow or monster toned coins on the market and these are the coins I seek. This market is dry I've been shut out the past several months. MJ

Barry · February 23, 2011 12:35PM

If toned silverware sold for absurd prices, you'd see a lot more toned silverware.

melvin289 · February 23, 2011 12:35PM

There was an episode of Pawn Stars where a man brought in a Revere tablespoon he thought was made by Paul Revere. Rick commented that the patina and rainbow toning let him know the spoon was old. Don't know how it came out fell asleep on the couch.

Ron

Edited to add: Rick did say it looked to made from coin silver.

llafoe · February 23, 2011 12:39PM

<< <My question is... how many of the colorful toned coins are original? From my experience, a rainbow coin is VERY rare. If that's true, why are there sooooo many for sale in the market?>

Man, I see it just the opposite. I see soooo little for sale. I rarely see any rainbow or monster toned coins on the market and these are the coins I seek. This market is dry I've been shut out the past several months. MJ >>

You should have attended the SLNA... there was one dealer that had at least 200 rainbow toned coins; in slabs!

llafoe · February 23, 2011 12:40PM

<< There was an episode of Pawn Stars where a man brought in a Revere tablespoon he thought was made by Paul Revere. Rick commented that the patina and rainbow toning let him know the spoon was old. Don't know how it came out fell asleep on the couch.

Ron

Edited to add: Rick did say it looked to made from coin silver. >>

It wasn't rainbow toned... it had dark toning. He suggested that the seller maintain the tarnish to show it's age.

GrumpyEd · February 23, 2011 12:48PM

With silver I think if it was never dipped and has some skin it changes really slow.

Dipped blast white silver coins seem more reactive and seem to get rainbow toning much faster.

coinguy1 · February 23, 2011 12:49PM

<< 

<< There's not one answer;
each coin or silver item is the unique product of the specific alloy mix, the handling it receives and contact materials it's exposed to, and their interaction with the environmental elements over time >>

Great answer... which political office do you hold?

My question is... how many of the colorful toned coins are original? From my experience, a rainbow coin is VERY rare. If that's true, why are there sooooo many for sale in the market? >>

I look at thousands of coins, month after month after month. And I see only a very small number, percentage-wise, which are rainbow toned.

Of course, rainbow colored coins are probably more likely to catch your attention and leave an impression than generic looking coins are. So it might seem like there are more of them available than there actually are.

Baley · February 23, 2011 12:54PM

If it takes 37 years to obtain brown/black toning, it must take longer to obtain rainbow toning.

your initial premise is faulty. search "thin film interference"... start with a white silver coin, as the layer of silver sulfide builds up, the colors reflected/refracted back go through a progression, the main sequence is from gold to magenta to blue, ENDING with black, but the browns and reds and greens and oranges and other colors can be produced depending on the conditions, including accretion of other environmental atoms and molecules.

A naturally toned coin should have a brown/black origination point.

No it shouldn't

llafoe · February 23, 2011 1:10PM

<< If it takes 37 years to obtain brown/black toning, it must take longer to obtain rainbow toning.

your initial premise is faulty. search "thin film interference"... start with a white silver coin, as the layer of silver sulfide builds up, the colors reflected/refracted back go through a progression, the main sequence is from gold to magenta to blue, ENDING with black, but the browns and reds and greens and oranges and other colors can be produced depending on the conditions, including accretion of other environmental atoms and molecules.

A naturally toned coin should have a brown/black origination point.

No it shouldn't >>

I understand thin film interference... I'm debating reality, not theory. Are you saying all the brown/black rim toning at one time was beautiful rainbow toning? I'm talking about the thin layer of toning around the rim, the most commonly seen toning? Also, the thin film interference is darker where thicker, around the rim.

Have you ever seen silver; teapots, platters, silverware, etc. with rainbow toning? In theory, if silver intially tones with rainbow toning, why do you never see silver with rainbow toning? If I leave silverware in a drawer for two months, it will be toned brown... for six months, black. Why? Why do coins tone differently than silver? If you look at silver bars, they have brown or black toning... Why?

Baley · February 23, 2011 1:13PM

Have you ever seen silver; teapots, platters, silverware, etc. with rainbow toning?

Yes, I have, many times. Difference is, most people don't photograph rainbow toned teapots, tweak the color, enlarge the picture, and sell it for 10x

they clean it.

llafoe · February 23, 2011 1:19PM

<< Have you ever seen silver; teapots, platters, silverware, etc. with rainbow toning?

Yes, I have, many times. Difference is, most people don't photograph rainbow toned teapots, tweak the color, enlarge the picture, and sell it for 10x

they clean it. >>

I'm surprised... I've probably seen 25,000 pieces of silver, NONE had rainbow toning; nothing more attractive than a light golden toning.

If coins initially tone with rainbow colors, won't ALL of the rainbow coins eventually turn brown/black? If heat and moisture causes coins to tarnish (which I assume is why PCGS took away the copper guarantee?), then unless collectors of rainbow toned coins keep their coins in a cold, dry environment, they'll turn brown/black?

Baley · February 23, 2011 1:24PM

Not ALL coins turn rainbow before black.. some go straight to black, if the source of the toning was strong.

it takes special circumstances, and usually a long, slow time, to form multicolored toning... and yes, if left indefinitely, it will approach and reach black.

most attractive toned coins are put by collectors in rather inert holders, which either stops or greatly slows the advancement of the process.

There are very very few accurately stated ALL or NEVER statements when it comes to this subject

kurtdog · February 24, 2011 2:35AM

<< Have you ever seen silver; teapots, platters, silverware, etc. with rainbow toning? >>

I'll tell you when you'll see that, when those markets start demanding it.

Coin Silver vs Coin Silver

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