Chinese Countefeits have really entered the market...
coinkid855
Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
Yesterday I went to the Lakeland Coin show, and while perusing the bourse I came across a dealer with a PCGS graded early Bust Dollar in his case, or so it seemed. Right off the bat I knew it was fake. I asked him if I could look at it and where he got it, and then mentioned it looked "off." Apparently he traded a guy a 16-D dime for it...The font was off, as well as the holder. The scary part was that the coin was much better than the holder was, and thats what gave it away...He said he didn't know what i was talking about, but I told him he should get another opinion. By the way, the barcode, when scanned, gave me an 1858-O 50C....
-Paul
-Paul
0
Comments
I'm sure the dealer knew just what you were talking about but didn't want to hear it. In the past, when I informed a dealer that something was wrong (usually a misattribution) with an item in his stock I was usually met with hostility ... or ... the dealer would remove the item from sale ... and then put it back on sale after he thought I had left.
Looks like no venue is "safe" any more. If so it is time to stop buying coins, except perhaps from expert dealers that can authenticate (probably less than half the bourse dealers). If that dealer marks the fake down, it will surely move. I asked a question on another thread about dealers knowingly dumping fakes on each other. There is a chance the dealer in the story is going to take the financial hit, but there is also chance he finds the least experienced dealer on the bourse and trades or sells the fake to him. That lowest on the pole dealer might play the same game and sell it to a collector, or sell it on Ebay. Each person passes the hot potato, until it probably ends up in the collection of a collector and sits for a few years. The collector eventually tries to sell it, but by then, most of the trail is gone, and the collector may have no place to go. The lowest level dealers are probably out of business, having bought so many fakes and after a while having that catch up to them.
Whatever the case, as these reports multiply, keep in mind for every report, there are likely at least 10 fakes being passed. Personally, I think it is more like a hundred fakes for every report. Collectors on this forum are far better informed than most collectors. Many collectors don't even know that there are any fake slabs--they still think certified means safe. It is going to be ugly when that group of collectors accumulating what they see as bargains in fake slabs try to sell their collections. I would guess every month it is thousands of fake coins, worth millions of dollars being passed, mostly on Ebay. Be careful out there. The tsunami may be here, if bourse dealers are being duped and moving the coins as quick as they can. Don't get caught with the hot potato, they are trying to pass you. Less than 5% of collectors can authenticate. If a person isn't in that top 5% of experts, it is a time to be extra careful, especially on Ebay, but now it seems everywhere.
These coins may not even by Chinese fakes.
A coin dealer's bizarre plea bargain sees him "banished" from three Florida counties.
In April 2008, John H. Green, owner of AAA Coin and Jewellery, Mulberry, Polk County, Florida was arrested and charged with selling counterfeit coins. According to "baynews9", "Detectives said they were tipped off by a customer who said he bought coins from Green for more than $1,000, but when he had them appraised by two experts he found out they were counterfeit." Undercover officers from the sheriff's office then bought three coins from Green and these were found to be counterfeit. The allegations involved counterfeit buffalo nickels and "collector" pennies. Green's shop was then raided and thousands of coins and a 900 pound hydraulic press and die stamps seized. One of the undercover officers from the sheriff's office was quoted by "baynews92 as saying, "Some of those impressions on some of the die stamps would lead us to believe that he was making some U.S. currency, collectible coins".
In a plea bargain at a trial in July, Green agreed not to carry out any business in the three Florida counties of Polk, Hardee or Highlands while he was serving an eight-years probation. "The Ledger" reported that Green's lawyer, "emphasised that his client pleaded no contest to the criminal charges". The "baynews9" report alleged that, "Green was convicted in 2000 and served a one-year federal sentence for selling counterfeit coins through the mail". It has not been possible to confirm this allegation.
Comment
To an observer living in a system that does not allow plea bargaining this appears a very bizarre outcome. If Mr. Green was guilty of selling counterfeit coins then it would appear likely that it was to a much larger customer base than the three counties he has been "banished" from. The local legal authorities appear to have been more concerned about removing a nuisance from their jurisdiction that protecting the coin buying public.
[Sources: Fox35, baynews9, Orlando Sentinel, TBO.com, The Ledger]
Link to Story above
Not mentioned in the above article is that several dies of Morgans and early Bust coins were also present according to earlier articles which are no longer archived but I read in my earlier research. It's very possible the coin was made locally and put in a fake slab locally and not from China. Either way it's important to beware as this stuff is out there and from more then just China.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>Did you turn him in to the coin show operator, or just walk away? >>
I glanced at the rest of his inventory in the case, which included slabbed and raw coins, and nothing else jumped out at me. I just think he got taken on that one coin, honestly.
-Paul
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
Not mentioned in the above article is that several dies of Morgans and early Bust coins were also present according to earlier articles which are no longer archived but I read in my earlier research. It's very possible the coin was made locally and put in a fake slab locally and not from China. Either way it's important to beware as this stuff is out there and from more then just China. >>
Wow! To think we've been getting all riled up about the obvious China counterfeiting problem when there are large threats in our own backyard!
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>Can you tell us the name of the dealer? I mean he shouldn't be selling a fake coin.........I hope to got a second opinion............... >>
No, unfortunately I don't know his name... If someone who's going PM's me I can probably give them a gist of where he's located on the bourse, though.
-Paul
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>I hope some of the collectors heres as well as dealers will pm you and find out this dealer and check out the coin and if it is fake like you said, have him send it PCGS or something. It needs to be off the market. >>
He took it out of his case, and I'm not sure if he put it back in.
-Paul
<< <i>How where able to scan the barcode on the spot ? >>
+1
<< <i>
<< <i>How where able to scan the barcode on the spot ? >>
+1 >>
An Android App called PCGS Coin Scanner
-Paul
Edited to fix name.
fake plastic shells and blank inserts. Printing the text and sonic sealing is no problem. There are many old
added mintmark fakes and 1970s vintage US gold fakes that are MUCH more deceptive than the Chinese fakes.
Never buy certified coins from an unknown source.