Do you think the TPGs have done a great service to the collecting community?
llafoe
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If it weren't for the TPGs, would more coins (the majority?) be doctored? Would there be less "original" coins without TPGs? Yes, there might be some AT and dipped coins in TPG holders, but if we didn't have the TPGs, would there be more AT and dipped coins?
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...i think they are a godsend.
would also be far more whizzed, lightly polished, tooled, etc. coins being marketed as 'nice collector coins.'
In the 1970's, for example, dealers would buy a coin from a collector at grade X and sell the same coin to another collector
at grade X+Y. Playing that game, many dealers were royally screwing collectors. The TPG's largely put an end to that
nonsense.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
SonoranDesertRat <<In the 1970's, for example, dealers would buy a coin from a collector at grade X and sell the same coin to another collector at grade X+Y. Playing that game, many dealers were royally screwing collectors. The TPGs largely put an end to that nonsense.>> -- This statement makes sense to me.
Even now, most of the offered rare RAW U.S. coins are overgraded (by the standards of most experts) or are otherwise mis-represented.
The rise in the number of collectors of rare U.S. coins and the importance of the PCGS
Coin's for sale/trade.
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Thus, open the online market to greater fluidity.
Everything else...mostly a waste of money and spreading dependence by collectors on others to grade coins.
But with respect to coin doctoring, hower, they have also unwittingly helped make the potential rewards for coin doctors much greater. If coin doctors can get the right doctored coins into major TPG holders, they stand to make lots and lots of money. So unfortunately, the incentive to doctor certain coins might be even greater now that it was before the arrival of the major TPGs.
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1) Most (not all) rare U.S. coins are worth much more now than these were before the PCGS was founded in 1986. As we do not know how much coin appreciation would have occurred had the PCGS never been founded, it is a little misleading to say that coin doctors have more incentives now.
2) Though such events occurred long before I was writing about coins, I have been told that whizzing and artificial toning, among other practices, were prevalent in the 1970s and earlier. Many of those practices were even more harmful than the practices of most coin doctors today. Back then, severely damaged coins, which would not now stand a chance of receiving a numerical grade from the PCGS, were routinely sold as “Gem BU”! Maurice Rosen has written about a dealer who sold polished Extremely Fine (in terms of sharpness) Trade Dollars as Gem Proofs. If it were not for the TPGs, there would be almost no limit to the extent of coin doctoring or the severity of the practices. There is much less coin doctoring now than there would have been if good (not perfect) TPGs had never been founded.
The rise in the number of collectors of rare U.S. coins and the importance of the PCGS
The Ten Leading Topics of 2010
Without the TPGs, there would likely be half as many collectors, half as many dealers, and coins would trade far less frequently. All things being equal, that would be a good thing for the coins. (Of course, all things aren't equal.)
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Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Authentication, absolutely yes!
Everything else...mostly a waste of money and spreading dependence by collectors on others to grade coins. >>
Absolutely 100% correct answer, especially considering my overall experience. In the series and condition I collect,
I see A LOT of coins in TPG slabs (mostly PCGS slabs) that are blatantly incorrectly graded. I'm talking grades that make
me laugh at how wrong they are... grades that any AVERAGE enthusiast of the series would get right.. And this is why
I will always maintain that experts in any particular series will be more accurate graders in that series than the TPGs
so-called "experts" ever will be. Once you know how to grade, the only things TPGs are good for are (a) authentication
and (b) resale value... and (b) only comes in to play so long as collectors remain ignorant and dependent on the TPGs
to do their grading for them.
So in that regard, it's my opinion that TPGs have fostered a general undertone of collector laziness. I have quite a few
other pet peeves regarding TPGs, but I'll keep my comments to this... for now.
<< <i>CoinGuy1<<. So unfortunately, the incentive to doctor certain coins might be even greater now that it was before the arrival of the major TPGs. >>
1) Most (not all) rare U.S. coins are worth much more now than these were before the PCGS was founded in 1986. As we do not know how much coin appreciation would have occurred had the PCGS never been founded, it is a little misleading to say that coin doctors have more incentives now.
2) Though such events occurred long before I was writing about coins, I have been told that whizzing and artificial toning, among other practices, were prevalent in the 1970s and earlier. Many of those practices were even more harmful than the practices of most coin doctors today. Back then, severely damaged coins, which would not now stand a chance of receiving a numerical grade from the PCGS, were routinely sold as “Gem BU”! Maurice Rosen has written about a dealer who sold polished Extremely Fine (in terms of sharpness) Trade Dollars as Gem Proofs. If it were not for the TPGs, there would be almost no limit to the extent of coin doctoring or the severity of the practices. There is much less coin doctoring now than there would have been if good (not perfect) TPGs had never been founded.
The rise in the number of collectors of rare U.S. coins and the importance of the PCGSI disagree that it is misleading to say that coin doctors have more incentives now. And that's in part, because the same would have applied many years ago, as well, even if/when most coins weren't worth more than before PCGS was founded. The added confidence and security afforded by major TPG's added greatly to the value of many coins, very early on. So a stronger market for coins, in general, does not explain away my point.
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I think it's poured more money and more interest into the hobby/industry, which is a double edged sword. In the age of so many high quality fake coins, on one hand the TPGs stand as a line of defense against them (ignoring the increasing problem of fake slabs), but on the other hand... are so many fakes getting into the game because of the relative power and success of the rare coin market over the last decade or two, which I think was largely fueled by the presence of TPGs and the willingness of more collectors/investors/speculators to throw a lot more money into the rare coin market?
<< <i>Absolutely, TPG brought standardization, confidence and value to the industry. All requirements for a dynamic marketplace to even be possible. You can trade coins without TPG's but market participation would be far less than it currently is. >>
I agree.
Some additional comments: My grandmother was a coin collector (she passed away in 1983) and I heard many stories from her about coin doctoring when I was young. In the 1940's and 1950's there were people making decent money doctoring coins, sometimes just by focusing on relatively low-value coins (working on $1 coins to make them passable as $2 coins, etc.). Before the appearance of TPG's, dealers had to know how to grade and spot 'problem' coins---their livelihoods depended on this skill. This is not true today. Between TPG's and the internet, the numismatic marketplace is fundamentally different from the one that existed before---investor money has flooded in, buyers can shop from their homes, there are FAR more opportunities for collectors to obtain knowledge about numismatics, etc. A negative (from my point of view) is the lack of constancy in grading---creeping gradeflation remains a problem (grading is tighter now, but will it remain so in 5 years?). The introduction of market grading to the business also has caused confusion IMO.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
IMO, their BIGGEST CONTRIBUTION is this forum. I wouldn't be nearly as active as a collector without it. So thank you PCGS for that!
<< <i>I collected US gold coin back in the bad old days before the ANA (A.N.A.C.S.) started grading coins. I almost quit collecting because of all the counterfeits, cleaned, tooled, over-grade, etc coins in the marketplace. >>
My thoughts exactly.
Eric
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oh, there have been bumps and bruises, and some wild wackiness ... as always in this hobby ... and certainly I would prefer that many coins that are currently slabbed were left raw (although that would hurt our hosts revenue, and may affect their bottom line as well) ... grades and calls I could argue (as could we all)
but again ... overall, definitely positive IMO
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