...very nice roger! didn't i see that in your book also
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
I'd like to see that 1921 Peace dollar in person before I'd place a hefty bid on it. Yes, there is lots of "meat," but I'm not comfortable with the "look" in the fields. Perhaps it's the photo, but no high bids until I see it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>Ms Liberty looks like a hamster, storing rations in her cheeks for the winter. >>
Maybe that's the nature of a Matte Proof 1921 Morgan in that photo. I once knew an old time dealer who called the Ms. Liberty who appears on the 1907 Ultra High Relief $20 gold coin (the nomal diamater piece, not the thick one) "fat." She thought that the normal High Relief $20 gold coin was more attractive.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
We've seen this before. It's really a remarkable strike.
RWB uses these images in his excellent article, "Common Areas of Weakness on 1921 Peace Dollars". Maybe it's time to send that around again, Roger? Lance.
edited to add: I have a raw '21 I carry as a pocket piece. It has a nicer strike than my MS66 struck on an obverse proof die. (Larry S. now owns the 66.)
<< <i>We've seen this before. It's really a remarkable strike.
RWB uses these images in his excellent article, "Common Areas of Weakness on 1921 Peace Dollars". Maybe it's time to send that around again, Roger? Lance.
edited to add: I have a raw '21 I carry as a pocket piece. It has a nicer strike than my MS66 struck on an obverse proof die. (Larry S. now owns the 66.)
It is likely that the best 1921 coins come from those made the first day - when engraver Morgan complained of having to change dies frequently. The next day, only about 100 were struck - possibly they were trying to find the best pressure to use. Nearly all the rest are mediocre in strike, although the luster is good because the dies were used longer.
Do not mistake an absence of cartwheel luster for a problem – it is normal for many coins struck from fresh dies.
Looks like a nice as you could ask for AU to me, lightly handled after being one of the first batch released to much fan fare would be my guess. I say that because in my experience, a matte finish turns shinny with rub like on some of the high points of that coin but I could be wrong. I like the weakly struck coins as I think it adds charm esp the ones that were hand engraved to fix clash marks or die weakness(VAM-3). And while the other 21 does not look like a 66 to me from the photo, I have to think that if LS and PCGS both liked it so much its surfaces have to be alive with luster.
That's a nice sandblast proof from the Benson Collection sale in 2001 (?). The sale offered all of the proofs as knnown at that time - and together they brought a paltry sum.
<< <i>Do not mistake an absence of cartwheel luster for a problem – it is normal for many coins struck from fresh dies. >>
RWB,
Do you have any links or information about the relationship between die wear and luster, or if you have time could you run through the general idea? I can understand how EDS coins would tend towards brilliant, but I guess I am looking for some sort of specifics... ie when we go from brilliant to nice luster to bad orange peel along a dies life. How many of each sort can we expect during the life of a single die etc.
Do you have any links or information about the relationship between die wear and luster, or if you have time could you run through the general idea?
Eventually, I'll get around to publishing a research article on this. However, that gist is: steel dies come from the working hub with a smooth, satin metallic surface. This is the surface imparted to the first few hundred coins. As the dies are used, two changes occur. 1) the die metal flows due to repeated impact. This created tiny ridges and other surface detail that results in what collectors call "luster." 2) at the same time, the metal tries to conform to the average surface of the planchets. If planchets are polished, the dies will also mirror (no pun intended) this.
The above does not apply to modern dies with chromium plating or chromium electrodeposit surfaces.
<< <i>Do you have any links or information about the relationship between die wear and luster, or if you have time could you run through the general idea?
Eventually, I'll get around to publishing a research article on this. However, that gist is: steel dies come from the working hub with a smooth, satin metallic surface. This is the surface imparted to the first few hundred coins. As the dies are used, two changes occur. 1) the die metal flows due to repeated impact. This created tiny ridges and other surface detail that results in what collectors call "luster." 2) at the same time, the metal tries to conform to the average surface of the planchets. If planchets are polished, the dies will also mirror (no pun intended) this.
The above does not apply to modern dies with chromium plating or chromium electrodeposit surfaces.
Hope this helps. >>
Very nice photo and descriptions. If you actually follow this up with an article, please be sure to give board members a 'heads up.' And possibly extend this to include other types of coins with unusual surfaces (e.g., DMPL/PL Morgans, gold and Indian Head cent proofs with 'orange-peel' fields, etc.).
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
Those are some very interesting photos. I guess I never paid much attention to the 1921 Peace, nor did I realize that there was so much nice detail. Thanks for the thread, Roger.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
And possibly extend this to include other types of coins with unusual surfaces (e.g., DMPL/PL Morgans, gold and Indian Head cent proofs with 'orange-peel' fields, etc.
That's part of the article delay -- separating fact from fiction. The sandblast and satin gold, and matte minors are described in the three Renaissance of American Coinage books covering 1905-1921. But things like PL Morgans and halves and quarters are different, same for the "orange peel" effect on gold and silver.
Modern technology can certainly produce commemoratives with relief similar to the 1921 Peace dollars. For circulation use, however, the main factor is die life.
PS: The image has served its purpose for a club meeting and will be removed soon. Thanks to all for their comments.
<< <i>Modern technology can certainly produce commemoratives with relief similar to the 1921 Peace dollars. For circulation use, however, the main factor is die life.
PS: The image has served its purpose for a club meeting and will be removed soon. Thanks to all for their comments. >>
That doesn't make any sense. Why not post it somewhere privately? Surely someone in the club had access to some webspace.
RWB
Posts: 8,082 ✭
Comments
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
100% Positive BST transactions
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
...very nice roger! didn't i see that in your book also
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>Ms Liberty looks like a hamster, storing rations in her cheeks for the winter. >>
Maybe that's the nature of a Matte Proof 1921 Morgan in that photo. I once knew an old time dealer who called the Ms. Liberty who appears on the 1907 Ultra High Relief $20 gold coin (the nomal diamater piece, not the thick one) "fat." She thought that the normal High Relief $20 gold coin was more attractive.
<< <i>Now there is some detail. >>
Or do you mean details??
<< <i>A board member asked me to post this so he could show it to club members.
The surfaces do not look original to me. I have to wonder if the coin wouldn't bag for altered surfaces.
RWB uses these images in his excellent article, "Common Areas of Weakness on 1921 Peace Dollars". Maybe it's time to send that around again, Roger?
Lance.
edited to add:
I have a raw '21 I carry as a pocket piece. It has a nicer strike than my MS66 struck on an obverse proof die. (Larry S. now owns the 66.)
Here are both.
The various opinions are appreciated, but I already know its grade and other characteristics. It is not for sale, but thanks for asking.
<< <i>
<< <i>Now there is some detail. >>
Or do you mean details?? >>
No
<< <i>The coin photo was posted for the purpose stated.
The various opinions are appreciated, but I already know its grade and other characteristics. It is not for sale, but thanks for asking. >>
So what is the grade?
<< <i>We've seen this before. It's really a remarkable strike.
RWB uses these images in his excellent article, "Common Areas of Weakness on 1921 Peace Dollars". Maybe it's time to send that around again, Roger?
Lance.
edited to add:
I have a raw '21 I carry as a pocket piece. It has a nicer strike than my MS66 struck on an obverse proof die. (Larry S. now owns the 66.)
Here are both.
the second one is a 66 ?
Barrytrot(2),Stupid,Savoyspecial,docq,ecoinquest, halfhunter,snman,Coll3ctor.
wondercoin. Blue594. internetjunky.
keepdachange. Scrapman1077.Ahrensdad, mrmom, mygrandeoso, blu62vette, Clackamas,giorgio11, adriana, cucamongacoin,
Do not mistake an absence of cartwheel luster for a problem – it is normal for many coins struck from fresh dies.
<< <i>Do not mistake an absence of cartwheel luster for a problem – it is normal for many coins struck from fresh dies. >>
RWB,
Do you have any links or information about the relationship between die wear and luster, or if you have time could you run through the general idea? I can understand how EDS coins would tend towards brilliant, but I guess I am looking for some sort of specifics... ie when we go from brilliant to nice luster to bad orange peel along a dies life. How many of each sort can we expect during the life of a single die etc.
Eventually, I'll get around to publishing a research article on this. However, that gist is: steel dies come from the working hub with a smooth, satin metallic surface. This is the surface imparted to the first few hundred coins. As the dies are used, two changes occur. 1) the die metal flows due to repeated impact. This created tiny ridges and other surface detail that results in what collectors call "luster." 2) at the same time, the metal tries to conform to the average surface of the planchets. If planchets are polished, the dies will also mirror (no pun intended) this.
The above does not apply to modern dies with chromium plating or chromium electrodeposit surfaces.
Hope this helps.
<< <i>Do you have any links or information about the relationship between die wear and luster, or if you have time could you run through the general idea?
Eventually, I'll get around to publishing a research article on this. However, that gist is: steel dies come from the working hub with a smooth, satin metallic surface. This is the surface imparted to the first few hundred coins. As the dies are used, two changes occur. 1) the die metal flows due to repeated impact. This created tiny ridges and other surface detail that results in what collectors call "luster." 2) at the same time, the metal tries to conform to the average surface of the planchets. If planchets are polished, the dies will also mirror (no pun intended) this.
The above does not apply to modern dies with chromium plating or chromium electrodeposit surfaces.
Hope this helps. >>
Very nice photo and descriptions. If you actually follow this up with an article, please be sure to give board members a 'heads up.' And possibly extend this to include other types of coins with unusual surfaces (e.g., DMPL/PL Morgans, gold and Indian Head cent proofs with 'orange-peel' fields, etc.).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I knew it would happen.
That's part of the article delay -- separating fact from fiction. The sandblast and satin gold, and matte minors are described in the three Renaissance of American Coinage books covering 1905-1921. But things like PL Morgans and halves and quarters are different, same for the "orange peel" effect on gold and silver.
Also, it about time availability.
PS: The image has served its purpose for a club meeting and will be removed soon. Thanks to all for their comments.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Modern technology can certainly produce commemoratives with relief similar to the 1921 Peace dollars. For circulation use, however, the main factor is die life.
PS: The image has served its purpose for a club meeting and will be removed soon. Thanks to all for their comments. >>
That doesn't make any sense. Why not post it somewhere privately? Surely someone in the club had access to some webspace.
Evidently it made sense for their purposes. Apologies if you were offended in some way.