Toned Coin Premiums

19Lyds

"If a coin has vivid rainbow toning, chances are that it was done by a coin doctor. Sorry about that. The point is, it's best not to pay much if any more for brilliant or rainbow-toned coins."

Q David Bowers - Coin World, January 17th, 2011


Comments?

kurtdog

OK, I'll start it off. I'll comment this thread won't do ten replies before somebody accuses him, either directly or indirectly, of being a coin doctor or a coin doctor sympathizer.

dragon

<<< "If a coin has vivid rainbow toning, chances are that it was done by a coin doctor >>>



That's just plain not true IMO. I would have worded it differently and said "the possibility exists" and not "chances are" which implies that most are not genuine.

There are literally 1000's of vividly toned rainbow Morgans that were 100% toned inside of their canvas bags after many years of storage. I know this for a fact as I've seen some come right out of the mint sealed bags myself.

taxmad

How do you explain the GSA Morgan CC's that are still in the Government packaging?

RichieURich

<< <i><<< "If a coin has vivid rainbow toning, chances are that it was done by a coin doctor >>>



That's just plain not true IMO. I would have worded it differently and said "the possibility exists" and not "chances are" which implies that most are not genuine.

There are literally 1000's of vividly toned rainbow Morgans that were 100% toned inside of their canvas bags after many years of storage. I know this for a fact as I've seen some come right out of the mint sealed bags myself. >>



Exactly! Plus many other similar coins!

Bochiman

Without a better idea of exactly what he is talking about, I think it is too short-sighted of an outlook to say that.
QDB knows coins but I think he has been slipping in some of the things, such as this, that he has said in the last few years.

I sat at the FUN luncheon in 2005 with him, HRH, and a few others....and the stories they told each other (I was a complete nobody to them as I am unknown in the coin field but I was lucky enough to be there for the conversations), were very cool and interesting.....from a different era. QDB has a lot of institutionalized knowledge but there is just so much for anyone to know/learn that no 1 person is king of what is right, or not.

I am sure there are MANY vividly rainbow toned coins that ARE a product of a coin doctor....just as I am sure there are some that aren't.

metalmeister

dsessom

<< <i>"If a coin has vivid rainbow toning, chances are that it was done by a coin doctor. Sorry about that. The point is, it's best not to pay much if any more for brilliant or rainbow-toned coins."

Q David Bowers - Coin World, January 17th, 2011


Comments? >>



I agree 100%. However... If someone loves rainbow toned coins, there's nothing wrong with that. Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.

crypto79

As a % of the applicable subject matter, I would say more of the colored coins out there are not MA then are Market acceptable. How they got their color makes little difference towards that and only how people think they did differs.

dragon

Is this color on this coin the work of a coin doc? And there are many thousands of similar vividly toned Morgans out there that are also 100% original.

Broadstruck

I like toning... I'll pay up to a certain degree.

BillJones

<< <i>"If a coin has vivid rainbow toning, chances are that it was done by a coin doctor. Sorry about that. The point is, it's best not to pay much if any more for brilliant or rainbow-toned coins."

Q David Bowers - Coin World, January 17th, 2011


Comments? >>



Chances are Q. David Bowers is correct. Yes, there are some vividedly toned coins that are original, but most of them are Morgan dollars. Even among the Morgan dollars collectors must look at the coins on a case by case basis, and make up their own minds. With other series, the chances of vividedly toned and original becomes more remote.

Most of the coins with color that I admire have muted tones that flash up with turned under a strong light. If the toning is really bright, it's probably fake.

And no, I'm not a strong buyer of toners. Here are a few pieces I have in my collection. I paid the MS-64 money for this MS-63 graded Columbian half dollar.




Here's another, but it is a "chameleon" because it's looks like this from some angles and dull from other angles. It is an 1874 with arrows Proof quarter. Is it real or is it from a bottle? I don't know, I just liked the coin. I paid PR-66 Gray Sheet money for this which is the grade that's on the holder.



And finally this very pretty 1832 dime, once more at Gray Sheet money ...

TPRC

Good thread and an important topic. I hadn't seen that statement.

I don't collect rainbow toned coins anymore and I don't pretend to be an expert. However, I used to collect them and I've taken some time to study toning, including classes from Bob Campbell at the ANA seminar on NT vs. AT, so I'm not a complete novice here.

I agree with QDB's statement. The CC dollar shown, while natural, does not really fit into the category that QDB addresses, IMO. It looks like typical pretty bag toning. The 80-s does fit into the vivid category and it, too, looks completely natural and beautiful. So this would be an exception to the statement placing that coin into that 49% ("chances are...") of vividly toned coins that are NT according to QDB. But I have to say that when I see some of these very vividly toned coins, my initial reaction is AT and to wonder how they did it. And my recent readings on this forum have strengthened rather than weakened my opinion on the subject. That is why I follow QDB's advice.

19Lyds

<< <i>How do you explain the GSA Morgan CC's that are still in the Government packaging? >>

I'm only the messenger buddy. Its QDB's opinion.

As for these two:

<< <i> .. >>

I don't "think" that is what he's referring to. I "think" he referring more along the lines of whats currently termed a "Monster". Y'all know what I'm referring to since you've all seen them. I certainly can't post any pictures since I don't wanna make anybody mad at me.

Say wait, here's one:



Or possibly:

WTCG

This is just evidence that there is nobody in the world who could be considered a true absolute authority on all areas of numismatics.

BillJones

The CC dollar in the GSA holder is natural. I won't touch the last four coins with a ten foot pole. The toning ranges from funny looking to LOL.

BillJones

<< <i>This is just evidence that there is nobody in the world who could be considered a true absolute authority on all areas of numismatics. >>



Maybe so, but all of us are at a disadvantage here because we are working with photographs and not the coins in person.

keets

he's probably correct if he's using the term vivid rainbow toning as it was originally meant to describe the types of coins like metalmeister and dragon posted, banded rainbow toning. the word "Rainbow" is so overused nowadays that it typically refers to any coin with muti-colors. i think Rainbow toning is a very specific type of pattern, and that could possibly be why QDB used the term.

Russ

<< <i>The CC dollar in the GSA holder is natural. I won't touch the last four coins with a ten foot pole. The toning ranges from funny looking to LOL. >>



I think the last one in that group is natural, but the image is juiced.

Russ, NCNE

BillJones

<< <i>

<< <i>The CC dollar in the GSA holder is natural. I won't touch the last four coins with a ten foot pole. The toning ranges from funny looking to LOL. >>



I think the last one in that group is natural, but the image is juiced.

Russ, NCNE >>



My response is I call 'em as I see 'em, and that picture would not entice me to bid or buy.

Kove

In Bob Campbell's ANA Summer Seminar course, he encouraged us to go to the ANA library and check out some auction catalogs from the 1980s, and notice how few colorfully toned coins there were for sale. People used to dip off the bag toning in the 1960s and 70s when the coins would come out of the bags, and the auction catalogs reflected this. Next, he had us look at several recent Heritage auction catalogs and notice how many more monster toners there are in most auctions. Bob's point was that it's likely that people are re-creating "natural" Treasury bag toning through certain storage methods and patiently waiting a few years. In his view, this is not doctoring, since it's not using gases or chemicals for a very speedy effect. Certainly original examples are abundant, but others have likely been "helped" by this method. My main point is that these methods will create more toners on the market over time.

I'm not debating the "doctored" label, or AT vs. NT.

However, in my view, the possibility that more "monster" toners can "naturally" and slowly be recreated, this puts a great deal of risk into the price premiums that people pay for toning. Will people spending a lot of $$$ for color today be rewarded when more and more examples come on the market in the next decade? Many of these coming examples will exhibit all the telltale signs of original Treasury bag toning.

19Lyds

<< <i>Many of these coming examples will exhibit all the telltale signs of original Treasury bag toning. >>

Especially since treasury bags are readily available.

Too bad some of those old "toners" weren't left alone. It would be nice to see what 133 year old tonig actually looks like.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that folks tend to gravitate to toned coins for 1 of 3 reasons. (In no particular order)

1. They feel comfortable with what they feel an original coin. Perhaps one that has been "collected"?
   
   
2. They like the premiums that some of these coins bring.
   
   
3. They just like the pretty colors.
   
   

I'm neither here nor there but my gut feeling is that "if it looks too weird, then it's probablyt been messed with".

For example:

A crescent toner I can understand and rationalize as far as "bag toning".

A full sided toner, I can also understand and rationalize as far as "bag toning".

A two sided monster "bag" toner with a crescent, I cannot rationalize.

A two sided monster "bag" toner, I cannot rationalize since only one side can touch the bag cloth.

A two sided toner I can understand if it was stored in an old sulphur laden folder similar to the Dansco's BUT, it had better have progressive toning from the outer edges toward the center of the coin.


For a real example of sulphur laden coin folders, I would look no further than original mint sets up to 1955. To me, this type of toning represents true coin holder toning where one side can be heavily mottled browns and golds and the other side relatively white.

whatever. Folks are certainly encouraged to collect whatever they want, I simply posted what I thought was an interesting quote from a respected member of the numismatic community.

MorganMan67

Ditto-i will pay extra for rainbow toned coins also-if they are graded only though.

rhedden

The artificial toning issue is indeed a big problem for the modern coin market. A lot of collectors use attractive toning as an excuse to justify overpaying for coins. If it has pretty toning, it's OK to pay 4X Trends for some people. Or 6X Trends. There is a problem with valuating coins when one becomes accustomed to thinking in multiples of base value. In the end, you have a thin layer of silver sulfide on...... whatever is underneath. Is it an 1881-S dollar or an 1870-s dollar? That should be the first question. Toning is the icing on the cake, if it's a cake at all. I'm inclined to say premiums for toned Morgans are presently too high.

SFBayArea

I would say that Rainbow toned Premiums are here to stay. NT colored coins ad character and collectors get tired of collecting blast white coins. After all, how many blast white coins can there be? It's something unique. In any market system, demand and supply dictate pricing. As for NT or market acceptable coins, there simply aren't enough to satisfy demand. I have couple coins sitting in folders capable of toning coins but they just don't tone quick enough, not all tone, and not all tone nicely. With that said, it is harder to find nice monster toned NT rainbows, thus there is a premium. The supply cannot keep up with demand. No one can crank out a nice NT toner overnight. The coins I have are still toning away but the process is so slow that I look at them just once or twice a year to make sure they don't turn black.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Is this color on this coin the work of a coin doc? And there are many thousands of similar vividly toned Morgans out there that are also 100% original.


>>




If the coin docs could do that or like this 83-o then why aren't there more of the better date Morgans like 1890 89-o 88-o 91-o 92-0 91 92 93? I think if one took a thousand freshly dipped 83-o BU Morgans, and stored them in an original Mint bag the chances of making one like this are slim. IIRC David Hall said that the % of really nice toners in an original mint bag was fairly small.

bestclser1

The doctors are getting really good,but there are a few of us who know the difference.Dragon is certainly one of them.

gemtone65

The non-CC dollars posted by 19Lyds have toning that has been widely considered to be genuine for many decades. Curiously, I owned the blue one with the 1880 date for 12 years. It is actually an 1880-p. A toning break like this is often attributed to a rubber band.

I find the point made about the absence of rare dates having these vivid colors to be compelling. If the coin doctors could convincing tone an 1881-s enough to fool the grading services, why are there no bonifide vividly toned dates and mint marks other than, say, the most plentiful 15 or so?

max42565

I value QDBs opinions,he did say "chances are". and I agree with him, he also stated that toned coins come out of mint bags. I think there are way to many "monster" coins in the market. I know a dealer that has handled four bags of morgan dollars in his time and he told me that he could count the really nice toned coins from those bags on one hand. Also QDB hammered the CBH series,in my opinion that light rainbow type toning that is rampant, these days and looks like you could rinse it off with water has been added. You can go on certain dealers websites and buy pretty much a whole set of proof barber dimes all with rainbow toning, then go on e-bay and half of another set. You could go to the biggest shows in the country years ago and not do that,Pittman,Eliasberg,Pryor,did not have coins with that type of toning either, Oh well just my 2 cents worth.

dsessom

<< <i>Is this color on this coin the work of a coin doc? And there are many thousands of similar vividly toned Morgans out there that are also 100% original.


>>



This one is NT. One way to tell is the "ghosting" you can see especially around the stars.


If the coin docs could do that or like this 83-o then why aren't there more of the better date Morgans like 1890 89-o 88-o 91-o 92-0 91 93 93? I think if one took a thousand freshly dipped 83-o BU Morgans, and stored them in an original Mint bag the chances of making one like this are slim. IIRC David Hal said that the % of really nice toners in an original mint bag was fairly small.

>>



This one is likely AT. No "ghosting" anywhere to be seen.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>Is this color on this coin the work of a coin doc? And there are many thousands of similar vividly toned Morgans out there that are also 100% original.


>>



This one is NT. One way to tell is the "ghosting" you can see especially around the stars.


If the coin docs could do that or like this 83-o then why aren't there more of the better date Morgans like 1890 89-o 88-o 91-o 92-0 91 93 93? I think if one took a thousand freshly dipped 83-o BU Morgans, and stored them in an original Mint bag the chances of making one like this are slim. IIRC David Hal said that the % of really nice toners in an original mint bag was fairly small.

>>



This one is likely AT. No "ghosting" anywhere to be seen. >>



David Hall says that 83-o is a "no brainer' NT. We had a thread about that a few months back.

Newmismatist

Right from the bag into the GSA - no "coin doctor" made this

Newmismatist

If there's a coin doctor that can do this, I'd be happy to commission an entire set that looks like this!

Newmismatist

<< <i>"If a coin has vivid rainbow toning, chances are that it was done by a coin doctor. >>



I beg to differ!

PCcoins

I believe David Bowers comment doesn't hold any water. What evidence is he basing his comment from? Personally I own a few vivid rainbow toners, but they are not Morgan dollars. It seems that everyone was posted rainbow toned Morgans in this thread as if that's the only denomination Bowers was referring to. Seems a lot of the aftermarket cardboard holders from the '60s have toned some vivid rainbow colors, so those coins wouldn't have come to market until 20-30 years after 1960.

Yes, there are many doctored coins out there. But there's no denying the original monster toners that are out there too. They are rare, but natural.

tradedollarnut

There's just no such thing as AT or NT - you'll never come up with a strict definition that fits all circumstances. What really matters is MA or not MA .... and that changes.

Lehigh96

Bowers believes that coins with VIVID RAINBOW TONING are predominantly AT. Take a look at the toning scale I have created below. Notice that while there are rainbow shades on both the NT example and the Widely Accepted example, they are not vividly toned.




As you move further to left of the scale, the vivid colors start to show up. It is these coins that he warns against and these coins that drive the biggest premiums. And in truth, he is correct. The context of his article is about cherrypicking coins for their value and being a smart buyer. He is correct that buying expensive conditional rarities and paying large premiums for wildly toned coins which may be AT are very risky propositions and are not always financially prudent decisions. I don't think his statement is an indictment of rainbow toned coins. It is just that he would prefer this



which was purchased for 60% of PCGS Price Guide over this



which cost 5X PCGS Price Guide.

MikeInFL

<< <i>"If a coin has vivid rainbow toning, chances are that it was done by a coin doctor. Sorry about that. The point is, it's best not to pay much if any more for brilliant or rainbow-toned coins."

Q David Bowers - Coin World, January 17th, 2011


Comments? >>



I would like to know how QDB defines "vivid rainbow toning".

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>"If a coin has vivid rainbow toning, chances are that it was done by a coin doctor. Sorry about that. The point is, it's best not to pay much if any more for brilliant or rainbow-toned coins."

Q David Bowers - Coin World, January 17th, 2011


Comments? >>



I would like to know how QDB defines "vivid rainbow toning". >>

Ask him.

qdbarchive@metrocast.net

golfer72

I asked the same question about why you dont see certain dates rainbow toned on these boards awhile back. I was told the docs use common dates known to be naturally toned so their AT coins are more widely accepted . Makes sense I guess. You would think though that they would try key dates also.

SFBayArea

This debate has gone on forever.. One can tell if it's AT or not with experience.. The NT coins have thick toning and a toning progression of colors that's hard to match. AT toning is usually light and looks like it's painted on or gassed looking.

JJM

Its time for him to retire and sit back and enjoy his coins...............ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

JCMhouston

<< <i> I am sure there are MANY vividly rainbow toned coins that ARE a product of a coin doctor....just as I am sure there are some that aren't. >>



I have to agree with Bochiman on this one. MANY are doctored, SOME aren't. I know the people that collect or deal in toners are absolutely sure their's aren't doctored, but I'm not. Regardless of whether it's been TPG'd or not.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I believe David Bowers comment doesn't hold any water. What evidence is he basing his comment from? Personally I own a few vivid rainbow toners, but they are not Morgan dollars. It seems that everyone was posted rainbow toned Morgans in this thread as if that's the only denomination Bowers was referring to. Seems a lot of the aftermarket cardboard holders from the '60s have toned some vivid rainbow colors, so those coins wouldn't have come to market until 20-30 years after 1960.

Yes, there are many doctored coins out there. But there's no denying the original monster toners that are out there too. They are rare, but natural. >>



My guess is that he was referring to everything BUT Morgans. How many other series besides the Morgans were stuck by the gerzillions and stored in canvas bags for years upon years because nobody needed them? If it is true that the mint changed their planchet prep late in or after the Morgan series then it is unlikely that you will find common silver coins with the type of monster rainbow toning [often found on Morgans] in any appreciable quantity, if at all.

Sonorandesertrat

<< <i>There's just no such thing as AT or NT - you'll never come up with a strict definition that fits all circumstances. What really matters is MA or not MA .... and that changes. >>



I agree--market acceptable is what counts. But...this is a sliding standard. Just like assigning grades to AU or MS coins.

jmski52

My avatar still resides in the unopened OBW roll in which I purchased it, along with the other 34 rolls of the same date & mintmark. I'm fairly sure that it's not juiced or AT'd.

kryptonitecomics

Where is the popcorn........I love it when folks throw arround quotes where the person quoted has an opinion with no proof to back it up. All white coins that are 100 years have been dipped...see I can make rediculous statments as well and my statment can hold just as much water as QDB, but it doesn't make it anymore correct

Bankerbob56

<< <i>Where is the popcorn........I love it when folks throw arround quotes where the person quoted has an opinion with no proof to back it up. All white coins that are 100 years have been dipped...see I can make rediculous statments as well and my statment can hold just as much water as QDB, but it doesn't make it anymore correct >>





I have had conversations (e-mail) with QDB.... I too, think he is slipping.

I have a few original mint sets from the 50's which have been in my family since they were purchased from the mint. Several of those coins have incredible NT..... from the halves all the way down to the cents!

K-nite coins is right on with this comment!

crazyhounddog

That's so ridiculous I won't even comment...