<< <i>Unfortunately, however, I think many people confuse the ability to return an item (via Paypal, credit card or other means and technicalities) with the fairness/ethics in doing so, based on the terms of the listing. >>
I don't know- how hard is "no returns accepted" to understand?
Anyway, based on some of the posts I've read on this message board, there are definitely people who are not confused in the least.
<< <i>The OP said: "... even though the coin is in an NGC holder, the photos were sort of marginal (typical ebay photos)." Based on that, it appears he received the coin shown in the listing, but he's just not happy with it. If he wanted the option to return a coin which, upon examination, was not satisfactory to him, he had no business (IMO) bidding on a "no returns" auction. Sellers get criticized here all the time when they ignore the terms of the auction and do something else- why should it be any different for buyers? >>
It shouldn't be any different for buyers. Unfortunately, however, I think many people confuse the ability to return an item (via Paypal, credit card or other means and technicalities) with the fairness/ethics in doing so, based on the terms of the listing. >>
Yes, just because you can do it, doesn't make it ethical. Yesterday at the car wash a $40 bottle of aftershave was taken from the console of my car. The manager was nice and gave me a few tickets for free car washes. He pointed out that they have a sign up saying, "Not responsible for items left in car." I politely told him that his sign means nothing. You can't put up a sign saying it is ok for you to steal and thus make it legal. --Jerry
<< <i>I wouldn't even bother. I would stick it back on Ebay and be done with it. If I take a small loss so be it. If I take a large loss, then I would conclude I bid too much on the coin to begin with and learn from my lesson. >>
Heck, you might even break even or make a small profit. I have bought coins based on crappy pics that I ended up not liking, and many times broke even or made a small profit simply be selling the coin on ebay with better pictures.
<< <i>Yes, just because you can do it, doesn't make it ethical. Yesterday at the car wash a $40 bottle of aftershave was taken from the console of my car. The manager was nice and gave me a few tickets for free car washes. He pointed out that they have a sign up saying, "Not responsible for items left in car." I politely told him that his sign means nothing. You can't put up a sign saying it is ok for you to steal and thus make it legal. --Jerry >>
That's a great analogy and example, but finish the story!. Are you going to leave valuables out when go back to that car wash with your vouchers or are you going to try and get more vouchers?
The OP should list the coin and get what proceeds he can out of that coin. IF it went high, chances are it is going to go high again.. I wonder, will the OP again, bid on Coins with a no return policy and crappy pics? If he gets his money back by filing a case, is he going to do it again? I wager yes.
I am learning why some sellers have a bad attitude - on the other hand I don't buy "no return" items without accepting the consequences. There are so many great sellers out there who do what they can to build relationships. BTW I agree with others here, that without the listing, we don't have the full story.
What ever happened to live and learn? - A deal is a deal - Once burned, twice shy.. etc etc
PS Does the seller have a second chance offer option to the second highest bidder? If the OP agreed to paying the difference and the shipping and..... the 2nd/3rd bidder still wants it.. No reason for the seller to do this and they may not want to... It's just a thought/idea.
A certified coin can NEVER be "significantly not as decribed." If you advertise a PCGS MS63 coin, and deliver such, the deal is complete. Certified coins trade like stocks.
Auctions are not approval sales, although some dealers (myself included) offer a return privilege as a courtesy.
However bidding on a "no returns" auctions means you accept those terms as a contract.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>A certified coin can NEVER be "significantly not as decribed." If you advertise a PCGS MS63 coin, and deliver such, the deal is complete. Certified coins trade like stocks.
Auctions are not approval sales, although some dealers (myself included) offer a return privilege as a courtesy.
However bidding on a "no returns" auctions means you accept those terms as a contract. >>
Your first statement is not technically true. One could advertise a PCGS graded coin as having no haze, spots, etc. when in fact it does.
I do agree with the rest of your post. If the auction states "no returns", then be prepared to honor that as a buyer. If the photos suck, and/or you have no prior knowledge of the seller, think VERY hard before bidding (and don't stretch). Generally, I just move on. If I really want the coin, I might e-mail the seller with specific questions, and move forward according to the tenor of the response.
A certified coin can quite easily be "signficantly not as decribed". What happens if the coin has turned in the holder with spotting or hazing and the seller deliberately takes lousy pictures or goes out of his way to misrepresent the coin?
In general you would have made life much easier for yourself by not purchasing a no return item. If you feel like the seller deliberately misrepresented the coin then it's not unreasonable to file a complaint with paypal. Paypal will most likely side with you. If you don't like the coin but the seller has not misrepresented it, morally and ethically it should belong to you.
<< <i>I recently bought what I thought was going to be a PQ coin based on the description, and even though the coin is in an NGC holder, the photos were sort of marginal (typical ebay photos). I received the coin a few days ago, and I see things about it I don't like, particularly for the price I paid. What would you do, as a buyer, if the seller told you he/she wouldn't take the coin back and was unwavering about it? So far, I agreed to have the shipping cost deducted as well as cancel the transaction so they could get their money back, but no luck with the seller. >>
Looks to me that you are being as vague with us about the transaction as you claim the seller was with you. Why wouldn't you at least post a link to the eBay sale?
successful BST deals with Meltdown, Broadstruck, lordmarcovan, MisterTicToc, JINX86, BXBOY143, MBCOINS and others
There actually was no auction and was no NGC coin. I just used the story to spark a debate. I wanted to see where everyone here stands on it, because I had the discussion with a friend yesterday evening before posting.
Everyone has a different expectation when buying something. People that sell a lot want buyers to live with their decisions and people that buy a lot want sellers to accept returns if the are unsatisfied for any reason.
"18XX Bust Half PCGS XXXX- Book Toned- near Choice, I believe this to be a high end coin for its grade. This is a stunning example from my personal collection. I will be listing several really choice examples that have always been the core of my coin collection. These have been a safe for many years, and before they were sent in to be graded, were put away since the 50s-60s."
<< <i>There actually was no auction and was no NGC coin. I just used the story to spark a debate. I wanted to see where everyone here stands on it, because I had the discussion with a friend yesterday evening before posting. >>
You could have easily found out what you wanted to/solicited opinions without lying to people, here. That was totally unnecessary and very poor form.
<< <i>There actually was no auction and was no NGC coin. I just used the story to spark a debate. I wanted to see where everyone here stands on it, because I had the discussion with a friend yesterday evening before posting. >>
Usually... if one really wanted to "spark a debate", as you say, a level playing ground would have been introduced for the hypothetical situation. I just didn't see that here. You stated "you bought" a coin....bla,bla,bla.
As notwilight stated---"This is not an example off a recommended behavior listed in "How to Win Friends and Influence People". just sayin."
successful BST deals with Meltdown, Broadstruck, lordmarcovan, MisterTicToc, JINX86, BXBOY143, MBCOINS and others
I think the real point of this thread is about the grading companies "grade guarantee"! This doesn't have anything to do with what the seller thinks or what the buyer liked or didn't like about the purported coin. A seller can't possibly tell you everything that needs to be known about a coin before someone buys it. Since it was suggested to be certified, at what dollar amount is it worthwhile to exercise the "grade guarantee" of the grading company in "no return auctions?" Once that question is answered than everyone will know at what value the "grade guarantee" is absolutely worthless when buying coins blind!
Who, in their right mind, is going to spend another $60 for shipping and insurance both ways on top of a $100 valued coin. Perhaps a $500 coin? $1000 might be worth it, depends how much the buyer has in it? To see if the coin has hairlines, possibly overgraded?
Every so often I've come across a seller who can provide larger pics, otherwise, I no can do.
So there you have it, with the scenario that was suggested, perhaps buying a $500 at $400 will leave room for another look with the professionals if there's a question with the grade, eh!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I sell slabbed coins on ebay all the time, with excellent images, and without a return policy. My images properly portray the coin, and I note any defects on it clearly in my listing.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>There actually was no auction and was no NGC coin. I just used the story to spark a debate. I wanted to see where everyone here stands on it, because I had the discussion with a friend yesterday evening before posting. >>
You could have easily found out what you wanted to/solicited opinions without lying to people, here. That was totally unnecessary and very poor form. >>
Well, we know for sure he lied -- either originally lied that there was an auction, or he is lying now that there was no auction. He could very well be lying now due to the negative feedback in this thread -- and his story about dissatisfaction with the certified coin sounded real.
Comments
<< <i>Unfortunately, however, I think many people confuse the ability to return an item (via Paypal, credit card or other means and technicalities) with the fairness/ethics in doing so, based on the terms of the listing. >>
I don't know- how hard is "no returns accepted" to understand?
Anyway, based on some of the posts I've read on this message board, there are definitely people who are not confused in the least.
<< <i>
<< <i>The OP said: "... even though the coin is in an NGC holder, the photos were sort of marginal (typical ebay photos)." Based on that, it appears he received the coin shown in the listing, but he's just not happy with it. If he wanted the option to return a coin which, upon examination, was not satisfactory to him, he had no business (IMO) bidding on a "no returns" auction. Sellers get criticized here all the time when they ignore the terms of the auction and do something else- why should it be any different for buyers? >>
It shouldn't be any different for buyers. Unfortunately, however, I think many people confuse the ability to return an item (via Paypal, credit card or other means and technicalities) with the fairness/ethics in doing so, based on the terms of the listing. >>
Yes, just because you can do it, doesn't make it ethical. Yesterday at the car wash a $40 bottle of aftershave was taken from the console of my car. The manager was nice and gave me a few tickets for free car washes. He pointed out that they have a sign up saying, "Not responsible for items left in car." I politely told him that his sign means nothing. You can't put up a sign saying it is ok for you to steal and thus make it legal. --Jerry
<< <i>I wouldn't even bother. I would stick it back on Ebay and be done with it. If I take a small loss so be it. If I take a large loss, then I would conclude I bid too much on the coin to begin with and learn from my lesson. >>
Heck, you might even break even or make a small profit. I have bought coins based on crappy pics that I ended up not liking, and many times broke even or made a small profit simply be selling the coin on ebay with better pictures.
<< <i>Yes, just because you can do it, doesn't make it ethical. Yesterday at the car wash a $40 bottle of aftershave was taken from the console of my car. The manager was nice and gave me a few tickets for free car washes. He pointed out that they have a sign up saying, "Not responsible for items left in car." I politely told him that his sign means nothing. You can't put up a sign saying it is ok for you to steal and thus make it legal. --Jerry >>
That's a great analogy and example, but finish the story!. Are you going to leave valuables out when go back to that car wash with your vouchers or are you going to try and get more vouchers?
The OP should list the coin and get what proceeds he can out of that coin. IF it went high, chances are it is going to go high again.. I wonder, will the OP again, bid on Coins with a no return policy and crappy pics? If he gets his money back by filing a case, is he going to do it again? I wager yes.
I am learning why some sellers have a bad attitude - on the other hand I don't buy "no return" items without accepting the consequences. There are so many great sellers out there who do what they can to build relationships. BTW I agree with others here, that without the listing, we don't have the full story.
What ever happened to live and learn? - A deal is a deal - Once burned, twice shy.. etc etc
PS Does the seller have a second chance offer option to the second highest bidder? If the OP agreed to paying the difference and the shipping and..... the 2nd/3rd bidder still wants it.. No reason for the seller to do this and they may not want to... It's just a thought/idea.
complete. Certified coins trade like stocks.
Auctions are not approval sales, although some dealers (myself included) offer a return
privilege as a courtesy.
However bidding on a "no returns" auctions means you accept those terms as a contract.
<< <i>A certified coin can NEVER be "significantly not as decribed." If you advertise a PCGS MS63 coin, and deliver such, the deal is
complete. Certified coins trade like stocks.
Auctions are not approval sales, although some dealers (myself included) offer a return
privilege as a courtesy.
However bidding on a "no returns" auctions means you accept those terms as a contract. >>
Your first statement is not technically true. One could advertise a PCGS graded coin as having
no haze, spots, etc. when in fact it does.
I do agree with the rest of your post. If the auction states "no returns", then be prepared
to honor that as a buyer. If the photos suck, and/or you have no prior knowledge of the
seller, think VERY hard before bidding (and don't stretch). Generally, I just move on. If I
really want the coin, I might e-mail the seller with specific questions, and move forward
according to the tenor of the response.
In general you would have made life much easier for yourself by not purchasing a no return item. If you feel like the seller deliberately misrepresented the coin then it's not unreasonable to file a complaint with paypal. Paypal will most likely side with you. If you don't like the coin but the seller has not misrepresented it, morally and ethically it should belong to you.
My 2 cents.
Bruce
<< <i>I recently bought what I thought was going to be a PQ coin based on the description, and even though the coin is in an NGC holder, the photos were sort of marginal (typical ebay photos). I received the coin a few days ago, and I see things about it I don't like, particularly for the price I paid. What would you do, as a buyer, if the seller told you he/she wouldn't take the coin back and was unwavering about it? So far, I agreed to have the shipping cost deducted as well as cancel the transaction so they could get their money back, but no luck with the seller. >>
Looks to me that you are being as vague with us about the transaction as you claim the seller was with you. Why wouldn't you at least post a link to the eBay sale?
<< <i>There actually was no auction and was no NGC coin. I just used the story to spark a debate. >>
Good to know in the event you should post another thread asking for advice.
Everyone has a different expectation when buying something. People that sell a lot want buyers to live with their decisions and people that buy a lot want sellers to accept returns if the are unsatisfied for any reason.
"18XX Bust Half PCGS XXXX- Book Toned- near Choice, I believe this to be a high end coin for its grade. This is a stunning example from my personal collection. I will be listing several really choice examples that have always been the core of my coin collection. These have been a safe for many years, and before they were sent in to be graded, were put away since the 50s-60s."
EAC 6024
<< <i>Moral of story (yet again): Do not buy coins with marginal photos and a no return policy!!! >>
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>There actually was no auction and was no NGC coin. I just used the story to spark a debate. I wanted to see where everyone here stands on it, because I had the discussion with a friend yesterday evening before posting. >>
You could have easily found out what you wanted to/solicited opinions without lying to people, here. That was totally unnecessary and very poor form.
<< <i>There actually was no auction and was no NGC coin. I just used the story to spark a debate. I wanted to see where everyone here stands on it, because I had the discussion with a friend yesterday evening before posting. >>
Usually... if one really wanted to "spark a debate", as you say, a level playing ground would have been introduced for the hypothetical situation.
I just didn't see that here. You stated "you bought" a coin....bla,bla,bla.
As notwilight stated---"This is not an example off a recommended behavior listed in "How to Win Friends and Influence People". just sayin."
<< <i>This is not an example off a recommended behavoir listed in "How to Win Friends and Influence People". just sayin. --Jerry >>
After some of the replies you might want to reconsider winning some friendships.
Who, in their right mind, is going to spend another $60 for shipping and insurance both ways on top of a $100 valued coin. Perhaps a $500 coin? $1000 might be worth it, depends how much the buyer has in it? To see if the coin has hairlines, possibly overgraded?
Every so often I've come across a seller who can provide larger pics, otherwise, I no can do.
So there you have it, with the scenario that was suggested, perhaps buying a $500 at $400 will leave room for another look with the professionals if there's a question with the grade, eh!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Who, in their right mind, is going to spend another $60 for shipping and insurance both ways on top of a $100 valued coin. >>
If you're paying $60 to ship $100 coins (even both ways), you're doing it wrong.
<< <i>
<< <i>There actually was no auction and was no NGC coin. I just used the story to spark a debate. I wanted to see where everyone here stands on it, because I had the discussion with a friend yesterday evening before posting. >>
You could have easily found out what you wanted to/solicited opinions without lying to people, here. That was totally unnecessary and very poor form. >>
Well, we know for sure he lied -- either originally lied that there was an auction, or he is lying now that there was no auction. He could very well be lying now due to the negative feedback in this thread -- and his story about dissatisfaction with the certified coin sounded real.