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What's the point in grading a modern coin?
Papi
Posts: 1,189 ✭✭
I see hundreds of coins being sold on-line for less than the value spent on grading.
Are these sellers simply trying to recoup some of their losses?
Why is grading so expensive?
I checked PCGS for modern variety coin grading; $38 (not including membership fees; with shipping to/from $72).
NGC $24 plus shipping. (not including shipping & membership fees).
ANACS $24 plus shipping (no membership fees, plus shipping).
Of course this is for a single coin and I'm sure most of these sellers are making bulk submissions, but still.
So, my question. Why bother, unless you have the ability to grade yourself and you know it will come back as 67, 68 or 69?
Are these sellers simply trying to recoup some of their losses?
Why is grading so expensive?
I checked PCGS for modern variety coin grading; $38 (not including membership fees; with shipping to/from $72).
NGC $24 plus shipping. (not including shipping & membership fees).
ANACS $24 plus shipping (no membership fees, plus shipping).
Of course this is for a single coin and I'm sure most of these sellers are making bulk submissions, but still.
So, my question. Why bother, unless you have the ability to grade yourself and you know it will come back as 67, 68 or 69?
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2. These guys are looking for "lighting strikes" - coins that get high grades and therefore will bring big bucks from registry buyers.
3. The coins you see selling "cheap" are the ones that "flunked." They blow them off for low prices to recoup some of the money.
4. Most of them can grade, but grading modern coins at these high levels is a combination of skill and luck. It's tough to send in a coin like this "knowing" what it will grade. Heck it's tough sending in a "normal" old collector coin and getting the exact grade you predict.
Modern Bulk order is now $12.00/ coin plus shipping.
PGCS prices per current listings.
Here is an interesting fact along these lines. At last Summer's ANA it was stated that the AVERAGE grade given last year by the TPG companies was MS69. Just think of the number of Modern Coins (Eagles, Proofs, etc.) it takes to raise the Average to MS69.
twelve dollars worth of attention...
<< <i>that tiny small flaw is detected in twelve dollars worth of attention... >>
I know people who will be happy to detect the tiniest of flaws for no compensation whatsoever. In fact, I think I'm married to one
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
18359871 Oh yes I do still have that original box and stuff too.
<< <i> 3. The coins you see selling "cheap" are the ones that "flunked." They blow them off for low prices to recoup some of the money. >>
Sort of like selling the culls from the batch.
For the very casual collector just doing a few it's a real tossup with moderns, unless you happen to have an extraordinary eye.
Because IMO modern coins are now what keeps the grading services afloat. Without moderns and tired old rehashed cracked out coins coming in for regrading, crossovers, etc, I doubt the major services would have enough business to remain an ongoing concern.
When NGC first opened their doors they had a company policy NOT to grade or holder "modern" coins as they said they felt that supergrade modern coins were being sold and offered at prices that were unrealistically inflated due primarily to the grade on the holder and not the value of the coin itself (or something to that effect). Later on, NGC obviously rethought their modern policy (ie: caved, money over morals) and changed their policy.
Soon foreign coins will be the next big frontier in 3rd party grading, just watch.
<< <i>Soon foreign coins will be the next big frontier in 3rd party grading, just watch. >>
US coins are foreign coins in every country in the world, but one.
Think $6-8 per coin to grade them.
Send in, say, 500 ASEs... make 400 MS69s, blow those out, break even. Make 100 MS70s, sell those for, I'm guessing, $60-80 each profit.
Stupidity - willingness to pay money for nothing
Greed - the hope of finding someone stupider than the seller
Have you seen the prices on 2011 MS70 silver eagles on ebay? To make that profit the grading on those 70's would have to be BELOW free! LOL. And, the grading of those 70's costs more than the coinS as far as I know (for FS labels)!!
Wondercoin
p.s. 2010 MS70FS Silver Eagles now trade at $75/coin before ebay/paypal/shipping deductions. Is there ANY profit at all at that level?
If I'm a collector in lower grade moderns, I have too much money on my hands and wish to give back....
some moderns for circulation have a wide range of strike / eye appeal / luster -> final grade
many bullion, modern commems and proof sets have a very high percentage of MS69 / PF69, and sometimes the 70 scores have a large premium over the 69s
You get to practice your grading skills for the day you get to join the big boys (Real Coin Collectors) who only look at or consider classic coins as worthy of collecting.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Papi - the fee you quote is for varieties - listed in the Cherry Pickers Guide and not the redbook
some moderns for circulation have a wide range of strike / eye appeal / luster -> final grade
many bullion, modern commems and proof sets have a very high percentage of MS69 / PF69, and sometimes the 70 scores have a large premium over the 69s >>
Yes I realize I quoted variety fees, that's why I highlighted that part of my statement in bold print.
So, reduce the variety fees by $24, and you're still paying $48 for a single coin, including all the shipping charges. Grading 5 coins at a time, brings it down to $20 more or less.
But they don't even bring $20 at auction, look at completed listings for 2009 Lincolns; it's sad.
So, again my question; "why bother?"
<< <i>
You get to practice your grading skills for the day you get to join the big boys (Real Coin Collectors) who only look at or consider classic coins as worthy of collecting. >>
Real men collect real coins and can leave everything else to fools and foreigners.
The fact that moderns and foreign are among the best performers in the world
is just proof that the world is going to the dogs so wise collectors should hurry
up and collect old US coins before it's too late.
<< <i>
<< <i>Papi - the fee you quote is for varieties - listed in the Cherry Pickers Guide and not the redbook
some moderns for circulation have a wide range of strike / eye appeal / luster -> final grade
many bullion, modern commems and proof sets have a very high percentage of MS69 / PF69, and sometimes the 70 scores have a large premium over the 69s >>
Yes I realize I quoted variety fees, that's why I highlighted that part of my statement in bold print.
So, reduce the variety fees by $24, and you're still paying $48 for a single coin, including all the shipping charges. Grading 5 coins at a time, brings it down to $20 more or less.
But they don't even bring $20 at auction, look at completed listings for 2009 Lincolns; it's sad.
So, again my question; "why bother?" >>
People bother if/when they hope or expect that they will obtain grades which will enable them to sell the coins for enough money to make it profitable (over and above grading and shipping costs). Sometimes they guess correctly, and other times, not.
Most large submitters take numerous lumps, along with the scores, and look at the overall picture, in assessing their results.
but I can go to my bank and get a couple rolls of cents at face - look at them - pick out a 2009 Lincoln
and sell the rest at face
my cost would be 1 cent plus time and expenses - why bother buying a 2009 cent in a slab?
some collectors want the slab for their registry set
some dealers bulk submit (after years of grading and screening raw coin practice), to fill this desire/want/need
they probably have small losses on the majority of their coins, but the gains on the few more than make up for their effort
or they stop doing this after awhile
you can not make up for negative returns with increased volume
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>When NGC first opened their doors they had a company policy NOT to grade or holder "modern" coins as they said they felt that supergrade modern coins were being sold and offered at prices that were unrealistically inflated due primarily to the grade on the holder and not the value of the coin itself (or something to that effect). Later on, NGC obviously rethought their modern policy (ie: caved, money over morals) and changed their policy. >>
NCG for years would slab nothing after 1964 and offered a free booklet "Are your coins worth only 2 cents on the dollar?" warning against paying huge premiums for modern "condition rarity"
<< <i>
<< <i>When NGC first opened their doors they had a company policy NOT to grade or holder "modern" coins as they said they felt that supergrade modern coins were being sold and offered at prices that were unrealistically inflated due primarily to the grade on the holder and not the value of the coin itself (or something to that effect). Later on, NGC obviously rethought their modern policy (ie: caved, money over morals) and changed their policy. >>
NCG for years would slab nothing after 1964 and offered a free booklet "Are your coins worth only 2 cents on the dollar?" warning against paying huge premiums for modern "condition rarity" >>
NGC actually was grading moderns for years before they changed their policy to
no longer grade them. But they were grading almost no circulation issues before
this change in policy because there was almost no market for circulation issues
and because there were almost no circulion issues available to grade.
This means they were grading proofs before the changed their policy and didn't
grade moderns. People remember this all wrong for several reasons but one is
that PCGS didn't allow moderns in their registry sets when they first started in
'96. No doubt a part of the reason was they considered such coins "insignificant"
but a major reason was they had graded almost no moderns other than some
proofs; they didn't know how to grade circulation issues and knew there would
be a learning curve. Whatever the big reasons were that these events unfolded
in this way the fact remains that almost no circulation issue moderns were being
graded until nearly the turn of the milineum. They were most assuredly being col-
lected much earlier and there were BU Ikes trading for thousands even as early
as the mid-1980's. The grading services did nothing to create these markets and
if anything some did more to suppress them than encourage them in the early days.
Of course it was considered a form of customer protection to discourage them and
with the benefit of hindsight (or even without) it's obvious some of these makets
were, let's say, far ahead of their time.
Anyone who thinks that moderns are a fad or won't still have value in the future
are probably blinded by hatred of moderns, ignorant of history and human nature,
or are just not familiar with the circumstnces.
Anyone who thinks you can get rich buying moderns is probably a greater fool, or
unfamiliar with the nature of economics and collectibles.
You would have been called retarded in the 40's going through BU bags of Merc's to get that utter finest coin and save it. Go figure, if you were alive then and did not do it, now you are retarded.
My comments above are not to suggest the OP had a bad motive in posting this thread so let me also answer the question directly with an example. When the Ultra High Relief coins came out nearly 2 years ago, there was a serious question whether anyone should bother to submit the coins or just flip their coin for a quick couple hundred dollar profit. The coins were grading out somewhere around 50%++ perfect MS70FS so what was the point with such a high grade through rate other than to throw away $50 in grading fees (some asserted)? Especially since the coins were essentially "nothing more than bullion" anyway it was asserted by many here. Well, let's look at where we stand 2 years later. The coin trades around $1,900 - $2,000 as raw coin, but those MS70FS PCGS coins command closer to $2,700 - $2,800. Roughly an $800 premium and it was more likely than not that one would have exactly that coin (MS70FS) had they simply put up the $50 to grade it (at one point if I recall correctly nearly 2/3 coins were grading out MS70FS!) Not a bad return ... spending $50 to make an extra $800 2 years later - no? Not to mention the $1,100 coin itself jumping to $1,900 in 2 years either. Many a "modern coin" enthusiast turned $1,100 into $2,800 in just 2 years grading their "bullion" coin with PCGS (and how about those lucky guys who pulled MS70PL at NGC and now have a $4,000+ coin as PCGS does not recognize the PL designation on this coin!) IMHO, this "return" matches or beats 90% + of all "classic" coin performance over the same 2 year period (and I am being generous I suspect using the figure of only 90%). Just one real life example of the "point" in grading a modern coin. Wondercoin
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Maine_Jim
<< <i>These threads were so common 5 or 7 years ago here on the forum. "Fights" would break out routinely and there would even be calls for splitting the forum into a modern and a classic forum to stop the "bloodshed". It was often the case that the moderns would be "under attack" ... rarely would there ever be a thread entitled "What's the point in grading a classic coin" or 'What's the point in collecting a classic coin". As the years passed, the tension has greatly diminished here... not to mention collectors and dealers alike handling both segments of the market. Many a classic coin dealer has turned to dealing in moderns over the past few years (sometimes exclusively). Many a classic coin collector has turned to collecting moderns as well (some exclusively moderns). And, collectors often enter the field of numismatics through moderns and later fall in love with classics. There is room enough for everyone to have fun with whatever types of coins they collect (and grade).
>>
I think the biggest difference here on the forums is that most of the negative
comments about moderns are better founded in reality and most everyone on
either side of the "issue" has a better perspective.
How much more reasonable can you get than;
<< <i>I cannot see the value in collecting moderns. Sorry. >>
A lot of the dislike for moderns is probably still an emotional thing rather than
somethingbased on reason but that's great for moderns because where emo-
tions run high so, too, does interest.
I think moderns are going to continue to astound people for a very long time
but the best reason to collect them is that they are uncharted territory and they
are (often) US coins.
The purpose of my post was based on an oberservation of current sales (not past or future) of modern graded coins vs. the cost involved in grading.
I still don't see the point, based on the cost, in grading coins of this millenium, in the currrent market. IMHO
Keep the opinions coming. Thanks
a. i like the coin
b. slabbed set
c. more valuable variety
if you collect moderns i see no harm in sending coins you know will grade well as clackamas says in 100 years moderns will be classics, if you can afford it now makes for great family heirlooms