PR Newswire: "Obama Administration Stifles Coin Trade Amidst Calls for More Jobs"
Goldbully
Posts: 17,128 ✭✭✭✭✭
GAINESVILLE, Mo. Jan. 21, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- In a press release of January 19th, the U.S. State Department (DOS) announced extension, for another five years, of the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the U.S. and Italy "protecting Italy's archaeological materials representing the pre-Classical, Classical and Imperial Roman periods". The new agreement has, to the surprise of many, been expanded to include import restrictions on popular collectable coins of Italian types. These include early Roman issues and all coins of the ancient Greek states issued in what is now Italy. Details are outlined in the Federal Register of that date. Ironically, this action comes on the heels of Executive and Legislative Branch calls this week for the reduction of anti-business regulations that curb jobs.
During a preliminary public comment period, DOS received more than 2,000 faxes from private collectors, coin dealers and concerned citizens opposing any addition of coins to the MOU. By contrast, public support for the requested action was minimal. Collectors' concerns were also echoed in a bipartisan letter from 12 members of Congress to Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton. Opposition came from abroad as well. Bavarian Minister of Economic Affairs, Martin Zeil, registered his government's opposition to import restrictions on coins saying in a letter to the State Department that proposed restrictions "would negatively impact the legitimate numismatic trade between Germany and the United States of America and also people to people contacts between US and German citizens." He pointed out that because of the MOU's overly repressive documentation requirements "Legal trade would then hardly be possible between Germany and the United States."
Collectors argue that over the past 600 years literally millions of ancient coins have been bought and sold without any requirement for chain of ownership documentation (provenance). Under terms of the MOU, future imports of listed coin types would be stifled since most collectors and dealers worldwide have only general receipts, if any, and could not meet strict documentation mandates for individual coins. Coins are often sold at public auction in "group lots" with only general narrative descriptions.
The Ancient Coin Collectors Guild (ACCG) is challenging import restrictions on coins through ongoing litigation against DOS and the Customs and Border Protection agency (CBP) in United States District Court for the district of Maryland.
PRN Link
edited to add: I realize this is the wrong forum....will post in the world and ancient coins forum.
During a preliminary public comment period, DOS received more than 2,000 faxes from private collectors, coin dealers and concerned citizens opposing any addition of coins to the MOU. By contrast, public support for the requested action was minimal. Collectors' concerns were also echoed in a bipartisan letter from 12 members of Congress to Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton. Opposition came from abroad as well. Bavarian Minister of Economic Affairs, Martin Zeil, registered his government's opposition to import restrictions on coins saying in a letter to the State Department that proposed restrictions "would negatively impact the legitimate numismatic trade between Germany and the United States of America and also people to people contacts between US and German citizens." He pointed out that because of the MOU's overly repressive documentation requirements "Legal trade would then hardly be possible between Germany and the United States."
Collectors argue that over the past 600 years literally millions of ancient coins have been bought and sold without any requirement for chain of ownership documentation (provenance). Under terms of the MOU, future imports of listed coin types would be stifled since most collectors and dealers worldwide have only general receipts, if any, and could not meet strict documentation mandates for individual coins. Coins are often sold at public auction in "group lots" with only general narrative descriptions.
The Ancient Coin Collectors Guild (ACCG) is challenging import restrictions on coins through ongoing litigation against DOS and the Customs and Border Protection agency (CBP) in United States District Court for the district of Maryland.
PRN Link
edited to add: I realize this is the wrong forum....will post in the world and ancient coins forum.
0
Comments
Cheaper Fiats?
by minting pennies is OK they believe killing the economy one little regulation
at a time is OK, too. It's feel good legislation and it doesn't matter that it
stifles free trade and the value of collectibles because feeling good is the
most important thing going.
My goodness, how can it be? Glenn Beck, get your blackboard out please, and fast. Maybe he can include a few corroded biblical coins at $75 each in your survival kit. The socialist Anti-Christ may soon succeed in keeping any more of these beautiful treasures from the time that Jesus actually walked the Earth from ever again reaching our own sacred shores. And the conspiracy reaches into the highest levels of what we may still foolishly believe is OUR government.
Anyone have figures on how many coin dealers will lose their jobs if this continues? Ironic indeed.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
you can make the Fiat with less total expense, but i would argue that you cant make it any 'cheaper'
www.brunkauctions.com
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
Would I be charged with a crime now for shooting an ancient Roman coin in protest and putting it on utube?
Give them time, they'll keep coming up with more of this crap, day by day.
I knew it would happen.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
My goodness, how can it be? Glenn Beck, get your blackboard out please, and fast. Maybe he can include a few corroded biblical coins at $75 each in your survival kit. The socialist Anti-Christ may soon succeed in keeping any more of these beautiful treasures from the time that Jesus actually walked the Earth from ever again reaching our own sacred shores. And the conspiracy reaches into the highest levels of what we may still foolishly believe is OUR government.
<< <i>And we all thought that George Herbert Hoover Bush favored the free market. Less regulation. Less paperwork. The socialist conspiracy lurks everywhere. >>
If that's what you thought, you probably haven't talked to enough people.
Just sayin...
<< <i>At least we can buy those Fiats with our Fiat money. cheaper for cheaper. Ain't that how the free market works? >>
===========================================================================================================
We might note that the Congressional Register indicates that the US Government is responding to a request by the Italian government:
"We note that, pursuant to 19 U.S.C. 2604, the category entitled ‘‘Metal’’ has been amended to include the subcategory ‘‘Coins of Italian Types.’’ This
amendment comes in response to a Diplomatic Note from the Government of Italy requesting the Designated List be amended. Coins constitute an
inseparable part of the archaeological record of Italy, and, like other archaeological objects, they are vulnerable to pillage and illicit export."
The coins in question, according to the Congressional Register, are as follows:
"F. Coins of Italian Types—A type catalogue of listed currency and coins can be found in N.K. Rutter et al. (eds.), Historia Numorum: Italy (London, 2001). Others appear in G.F. Hill Coins of Ancient Sicily (Westminster, 1903).
1. Lumps of bronze (Aes Rude)—Irregular lumps of bronze used as an early medium of exchange in Italy from the 9th century B.C.
2. Bronze bars (Ramo Secco and Aes Signatum)—Cast bronze bars (whole or cut) used as a media of exchange in central Italy and Etruria from the 5th century B.C.
3. Cast coins (Aes Grave)—Cast bronze coins of Rome, Etruscan, and Italian cities from the 4th century B.C.
4. Struck coins—Struck coins of the Roman Republic and Etruscan cities produced in gold, silver, and bronze from the 3rd century B.C. to c. 211 B.C., including the ‘‘Romano-Campanian’’ coinage.
5. Struck colonial coinage—Struck bronze coins of Roman republican and early imperial colonies and municipia in Italy, Sicily, and Sardinia from the 3rd century B.C. to c. A.D. 37.
6. Coins of the Greek cities—Coins of the Greek cities in the southern Italian peninsula and in Sicily (Magna Graecia), cast or struck in gold, silver, and bronze, from the late 6th century B.C. to c. 200 B.C."
The following comes from the ACCG website:
"These restrictions are effective as of January 19, 2011 and will remain in force for a period of five years, at which time they will be considered for renewal. Any coins of the types indicated above cannot be imported into the United States after this date unless they are accompanied by an export permit from the Republic of Italy or proof that they existed outside of Italy prior to this date. Roman Imperial coins are not covered under the MOU and are not subject to import restrictions. The import restrictions apply only to entry into the United States. Collectors in most countries around the world will continue to enjoy unrestricted access to these coins.
The ACCG has actively opposed import restrictions on coins and continues to do so through ongoing litigation against the U.S. State Department (DOS) and Customs and Border Protection (CBP) within the Federal court system. It should be emphasized that this State Department MOU with Italy affects only the transit of undocumented coins and does not have any bearing on coins currently existing and recorded as being outside of Italy."
It looks to me like the Italian government is trying to protect Italian archaeological sites and the US government is cooperating. If the documentation requirements help in preserving the Italian archaeological record, developing classical archaeology and its associated fields, and advancing the sum total of human knowledge, then the concerns of coin collectors and coin dealers in having to minimally account for the sources of their materials are at best trivial.
The way I see it, however, is that 1) this is really little more than an annoyance in the international trade in ancients, and 2) it probably won't really do all that much to stop the destruction of Italian archaeological sites.
<< <i>Gee, maybe precious metals import controls are next.
Would I be charged with a crime now for shooting an ancient Roman coin in protest and putting it on utube?
Give them time, they'll keep coming up with more of this crap, day by day. >>
Why do you think this fairly commonplace attempt to stop illicit trade in antiquities would lead to precious metals import controls?
<< <i>I'd include some very choice words about the ACCG (they are the primary reason I quit collecting ancients), but I figure this thread will be poofed within 24 hours, so why bother. >>
What could ACCG have done to make you quit?
<< <i>My goodness, how can it be? Glenn Beck, get your blackboard out please, and fast. Maybe he can include a few corroded biblical coins at $75 each in your survival kit. The socialist Anti-Christ may soon succeed in keeping any more of these beautiful treasures from the time that Jesus actually walked the Earth from ever again reaching our own sacred shores. And the conspiracy reaches into the highest levels of what we may still foolishly believe is OUR government. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>My goodness, how can it be? Glenn Beck, get your blackboard out please, and fast. Maybe he can include a few corroded biblical coins at $75 each in your survival kit. The socialist Anti-Christ may soon succeed in keeping any more of these beautiful treasures from the time that Jesus actually walked the Earth from ever again reaching our own sacred shores. And the conspiracy reaches into the highest levels of what we may still foolishly believe is OUR government. >>
Depends on whether or not you see the sarcasm. I consider Glenn to be a gift sent to us to distract us from thinking about coin doctors
I think that it is a restriction on the export of any antiquities residing in Italy, no more, no less. It does not address what goes on at the actual archaeological sites, which is what it is supposedly designed to do.
It looks to me like the Italian government is trying to protect Italian archaeological sites and the US government is cooperating. If the documentation requirements help in preserving the Italian archaeological record, developing classical archaeology and its associated fields, and advancing the sum total of human knowledge, then the concerns of coin collectors and coin dealers in having to minimally account for the sources of their materials are at best trivial.
There is nothing in the exerpt that you posted to indicate any concern for the archaeological sites. In my opinion, this has much more to do with export controls than it does archaeology. That is why I don't see it as much of a stretch to extend this to other types of import/export controls. It's not about coins - it's about the money.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>It’s a shame that this administration chooses to aid and abet the xenophobia of nations like Greece and Italy. Ancient coins have traded across borders for hundreds of years with no negative affects for the nations involved, and some positive results like increased knowledge. It too bad that this is way our government treats us, but what to do you expect from the likes of them? It’s all about power OVER the people NOT power TO the people. >>
THIS administration?
Executive Order 12555 of March 10, 1986
Protection of Cultural Property
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including the Convention on Cultural Property Implementation Act (Title III of Public Law 97-446; hereinafter referred to as the "Act"), and Section 301 of Title 3 of the United States Code, it is hereby ordered as follows:
Section 1. United States Information Agency. The following functions conferred upon the President by the Act are hereby delegated to the Director of the United States Information Agency, acting in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Secretary of the Treasury:
(a) The functions conferred by section 303(a)(1) concerning determinations to be made prior to initiation of negotiations of bilateral or multilateral agreements.
(b) The functions conferred by section 303 (d) with respect to the determinations concerning the failure of other parties to an agreement to take any or satisfactory implementation action on their agreement; provided, however, that the Secretary of State will remain responsible for interpretation of the agreement.
(c) The functions conferred by section 303(e) relating to the determinations to be made prior to the initiation of negotiations for the extension of any agreement.
(d) The functions conferred by section 303 (f) relating to the actions to be taken upon receipt of a request made by a State Party to the Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property adopted by the Sixteenth General Conference of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (hereinafter referred to as the "Convention").
(e) The functions conferred by section 303(g)(1)(B) relating to the notification of Presidential action and the furnishing of reports to the Congress.
(f) The functions conferred by section 304(b) to the extent that they involve determinations by the President that an emergency condition applies with respect to any archaeological or ethnological material of any State Party to the Convention, subject to the limitations of sections 304(c)(1), 304(c)(2), and 304(c)(3).
(g) The functions conferred by section 304(c)(3) to the extent that they involve determinations to be made and the receipt and consideration of an advisory report from the Cultural Property Advisory Committee by the President prior to extensions of emergency import restrictions.
(h) The functions conferred by sections 306(f)(6) and 306(g) relating to the receipt of reports prepared by the Cultural Property advisory Committee.
(i) The functions conferred by section 306(h) relating to the determinations to be made about the disclosure of matters involved in the Cultural Property Advisory Committee's proceedings.
Sec. 2. Department of State. The following functions conferred upon the President by the Act are hereby delegated to the Secretary of State, acting in consultations with and with the participation of the Director of the United States Information Agency and in consultation with the Secretary of the Treasury:
(a) The functions conferred by section 303(a)(2) relating to the negotiation and consultation of bilateral or multilateral agreements under the Act, subject to the restrictions of the section 303(c).
(b) The functions conferred by section 303(a)(4) relating to obtaining a commitment on the exchange of archaeological and ethnological materials from a party to an agreement.
(c) The functions conferred by section 303(e) relating only to negotiation and conclusion of extensions of agreements under the Act.
(d) Except with respect to subsection 303(g)(1)(B), the functions conferred by section 303(g), relating to the notification of Presidential action and the furnishing of reports to Congress.
(e) The functions conferred by section 304(c)(4) to the extent that they involve the negotiation and consultation of agreements subject to advice and consent to ratification by the Senate.
Sec. 3. Department of the Treasury. The following functions conferred upon the President by the Act are hereby delegated to the Secretary of the Treasury, acting in consultation with the Director of the United States Information Agency and the Secretary of State:
(a) Subject to subsection (b of Section 1 above, the functions conferred by section 303(d) to the extent that they involve the suspension of import restrictions.
(b) Subject to subsection (f) and (g) of Section 1 above, the functions conferred by section 304 to the extent that they involve the application of import restrictions set forth in section 307 and the extension of such import restrictions pursuant to section 304(c)(3).
Sec. 4. Enforcement of Territories and Other Areas. The Secretary of the Interior is designated carry out the enforcement functions in section 314.
/s/ Ronald Reagan
THE WHITE HOUSE, March 10, 1986
Here's how ...
1. Buy a shovel.
2. Go out and stick it in the ground.
<< <i>Frank please don't screw up a perfectly good rant with pesky facts. Thanks Glen Beck and Faux news lovers of Collectors Universe >>
<< <i>Another poster with an inflammatory headline with no basis in fact. Another right wing post, could we just stick to coins. I was hoping for less of this rhetoric in the new year. And for the record I am not a Democrat or liberal, just tired of the hubris. I voted for Reagan and Bush I. >>
I would have quoted Frank and thanked him for information superior to all else in this post. A waste of good electrons since the info is are already here. Some on both sides of the aisle think that Reagan would be too liberal to get nominated by the Elephants today.
Instead of making every single stinkin' thing a political brouhaha, why not pay attention to what's being said and what's at issue?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>because you are blinded in your distaste of anything Republican, it doesn't mean that *either* the Reagan or the Obama administrations have had a good policy in this regard. >>
The difference is that the executive orders, laws, and international treaties were implemented during the Reagan years. Those have to be honored by
future presidents. Nobody is blinded by distaste of anything Republican. You can't make the false equivalency that both Reagan and Obama have bad policies, when
ONE president established the policies, and a president a quarter century later is simply following the law that's still in effect.
<< <i>And what does the US get in exchange for such an agreement with Italy?
Cheaper Fiats? >>
<< <i>
<< <i>because you are blinded in your distaste of anything Republican, it doesn't mean that *either* the Reagan or the Obama administrations have had a good policy in this regard. >>
The difference is that the executive orders, laws, and international treaties were implemented during the Reagan years. Those have to be honored by
future presidents. Nobody is blinded by distaste of anything Republican. You can't make the false equivalency that both Reagan and Obama have bad policies, when
ONE president established the policies, and a president a quarter century later is simply following the law that's still in effect. >>
There is absolutly nothing says that the Obama administration has to continue this policy. Don't use "his hands are tied" as an excuse. If you like the policy tell us why. If you don't you can express an opinion about that also.
<< <i>
Instead of making every single stinkin' thing a political brouhaha, why not pay attention to what's being said and what's at issue? >>
Better yet we should pay attention to what the government as a whole is doing. Two hands
wash each other and we have two sides of the same coin.
In any case the coin won't be an ancient Italian or Greek coin any longer because these now
have only the edge to roll back to Italy. Anyone who thinks they can change it not only has
two parties in Washington to convince but the UN and Italy as well.
The fundamental problem is that those responsible for proteccting the artefacts can'r really
be held accountable for protecting the artefacts and those stealing the artfacts can't be held
accountable for the theft.
So honest collectors have to pay the price.
These aren't rhino horns where everyone along the train of ownership and all the consumers
are at fault. These are coins used by everyone's ancestors and fairly purchased on the mar-
ket. There is simply no reason for such laws and no reason free people should have them
imposed.