Need your opinion on this Engelhard bar

AgBlox

I have this 5 oz Engelhard bar and someone has questioned it's authenticity b/c of the marks on it. It is clear to me that the marks on the bottom of the ingot are from it being dropped onto another bar since it is mirrored. The other marks are from a double stamping. I've had many bars with these marks and I believe I've seen others here post similiar. He believes someone ground off the original markings and re stamped the bar with the Engelhard logo. I of course from my years of collecting these bars know this is not the case. Just looking for an unbiased opinion from some fellow Engelhard collectors. Silverbaron, Gecko and anyone else please chime in..... Here are some pics:




bottom of bar

SilverBaron

Hey ...... I've got a 10 oz. just like yours!! I would post a pix but my camera system is down.

Any way .......... Looks genuine to me ....... right font ...... right depth of stamping .... right look.

Here's the proof ...... does your friend know how DEEP someone would have to grind off the top?

Talk about the bar being light .... and then the cost of the stamp and press to EVENLY restamp it?

All for a few $ gain over a no name bar.

Shoot ........ I'll buy it!!

PerryHall

Looks real to me. Unless the weight is way off (very unlikely) I wouldn't worry about it. Did this person who questioned the authenticity of your bar offer to buy it from you at a discount?

bstat1020

That looks to be the real deal to me. I have several bars similiar to those some markings.

AgBlox

Perry, quite the opposite, he paid a hefty premium which is why he is concerned I imagine.

SB, I hold your opinion in very high regards knowing what I do about you and your vast Engelhard knowledge. You answered exactly as I thought you would. Those were my thoughts exactly on restamping the bar. This person had mentioned the horizontal lines in the ingot and referred to them as sanding marks. The only thing I can think of is they are more familiar with the polished engelhard loafs and are not used to seeing these lines.

I emailed a link of this thread to the person in question hoping they will check it out and it will ease their mind. I also encouraged them to join as we could always use more silverbugs. Esp those who like the collectible ingots.

gecko109

Bar is genuine. But you'll need a much better explaination of the "ENGELHARD 999+ SILVER" ghosted image on the bar's reverse. Dropping a bar onto another absolutely could not impart that strong of an image.....unless it was dropped from 1,000 feet and landed perfectly flush with another bar!


Baron, could this be the bullion equivalent of a brockage?

FistFullOfDollars

I would think the top of the bar could have been shaved in

order to make it weigh an even 5oz, then stamped.

gecko109

<< <i>Bar is genuine. But you'll need a much better explaination of the "ENGELHARD 999+ SILVER" ghosted image on the bar's reverse. Dropping a bar onto another absolutely could not impart that strong of an image.....unless it was dropped from 1,000 feet and landed perfectly flush with another bar!


Baron, could this be the bullion equivalent of a brockage? >>






After further thought, here is what probably happened:


The stamping die was most likely attached to a hydraulic or maybe even screw-type press. Directly below the die was a steel plate onto which a freshly poured bar would sit....down would come the die press, and make the markings. I think an absent minded employee may have lowered the press without a bar on the plate, and therefore made a slight impression in the steel base. The next few bars minted on that plate would have a slightly raised mirror image of the Engelard die markings. Until they changed that steel base plate to another plate.


Edited to add: Because of this mirror image on the underside of the pictured bar, there is now NO QUESTION about its originality!

AgBlox

<< <i>Bar is genuine. But you'll need a much better explaination of the "ENGELHARD 999+ SILVER" ghosted image on the bar's reverse. Dropping a bar onto another absolutely could not impart that strong of an image.....unless it was dropped from 1,000 feet and landed perfectly flush with another bar!


Baron, could this be the bullion equivalent of a brockage? >>



I imagine they stacked them shortly after stamping them or something simliar. Maybe this was in Silverbaron's stash at one point and he left it on the bottom of his tonnage lol.

gecko109

<< <i>

<< <i>Bar is genuine. But you'll need a much better explaination of the "ENGELHARD 999+ SILVER" ghosted image on the bar's reverse. Dropping a bar onto another absolutely could not impart that strong of an image.....unless it was dropped from 1,000 feet and landed perfectly flush with another bar!


Baron, could this be the bullion equivalent of a brockage? >>



I imagine they stacked them shortly after stamping them or something simliar. Maybe this was in Silverbaron's stash at one point and he left it on the bottom of his tonnage lol. >>




Still very improbable. Silver is not a very hard metal at all. In fact, I would wager that if you took 2 of these bars, stacked one on top of the other, and then hit it with an 8 pound sledge as hard as you could hit it.....that still wouldnt be enough force to imprint such a SHARP EDGED design into the bottom of the top bar. You may get a somewhat mushy, even unreadable impression, but nothing even close to what you pictured. See my above post for a likely explaination.

Meltdown

Interesting thread.
I don't have much to add except the obvious... doubling happens.
I don't know what to make of the reverse lettering.

SilverBaron

Maybe this was in Silverbaron's stash at one point and he left it on the bottom of his tonnage

Can't be .......... This would mean that I sold 1.


Gecko109 .......... PERFECT ........ Exactly what happened .... and yes, they used an auto counting hydraulic press.



Keep on Stack'n!!