Yes, those last photos of the inside area of the clip show that it is without a doubt a man-made clip, and not a genuine clipped planchet (or 'incomplete planchet', as some like to use the more accurate term).
Sometimes, such as in this case, the scans the seller provides are not sufficient to determine authenticity - but since he added the 'inside' scans, that killed any possible chance it was real......
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
As has been suggested, this could have been a genuine coin with some sort of major damage in the missing area, such as a hole.
Attempting a fake clip on such a coin would be a major gamble, as people like us might detect it.
This makes me wonder if perhaps, despite the fantastic appearance and color of the unaffected area, the host coin is not a killer counterfeit? I am reminded of the best counterfeit 1909-SVDB I ever saw. That was back in 1981, and that piece was struck over a genuine Lincoln cent.
That SVDB counterfeit had excellent surface detail copied from a genuine coin. I suspect that a 1922 "No D" cent would be easier to copy, as most of the detail is naturally mushy. If struck over a well-worn wheat cent from the teens as a planchet, which could give you that fine woodgrain effect, the only way to detect it might be the weight loss from the circulation of the host coin.
I am not saying that that is what happened here. I am merely calling upon the TPG's to start paying closer attention to all 1922 "No D" cents.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Well look what just resurfaced on eBay. I'll try to find the photos in the OP back from the first time this coin was offered so the rest of the thread makes sense.
EDIT: I found and uploaded the pics from the posts on the first page.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
As was brought out last year, there is no metal flow towards the void; it's easiest to see this on the reverse, where there are some letters that simply 'drop off' where the clip is; there should be some metal flow at least.
It's NG
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Is it the same seller as last time: theconsignmenthub ?? >>
Huh, apparently I did save the edge photo too:
I think this is the same seller, I remember it was a consignment type service, but I can't be 100% sure. There's no point in reporting the auction with my pics as evidence since eBay has no way of knowing it's the same coin. At lest by bumping the thread here, it will keep board members from being tempted.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
UPDATE: This coin had been relisted several times since I last updated this post, and sometime over the weekend it finally sold for $750.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I guess the last sale didn't stick after all, as the original seller has this coin back up for sale. What's that expression about a bad penny?
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Well, although most of us said it was bad two years ago, that edge view of the 'clip' area is the final straw.
Stick a fork in the coin - there is NO cut/tear marks whatsoever.
Also, noted years ago, there are suspicious rim flattened areas in the following points:
The Rim above "E" of We" on the Obverse
The Rim at the "U" of "Uribus on the Rev.
The Rim at 7:30 below the Wheat Stalk 0n the Rev.
No Metal Flow Whatsoever.
Besides those points above, there is another factor that to me, at least, is very obvious why the seller knows the piece is NO GOOD: He hasn't been able to get it in ANY TPG holder. I know it hasn't been submitted to PCGS, and I strongly feel it probably hasn't been to NGC or ANACS either.
He's had almost two years to verify it's authenticity; a coin like that should be in a holder by now, by someone, if it were genuine.
FAKE CLIP - No Doubt WhatsoEver !
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Note the wording "Has been clipped." Is this an admission that it was altered after it was struck?
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Note the wording "Has been clipped." Is this an admission that it was altered after it was struck?
TD >>
Maybe, though if I had to place a bet I'd say the seller simply doesn't understand the way clipped planchets are created. If you click the link higher up on the page, the wording was identical when the coin "sold" for $750 earlier this month.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Note the wording "Has been clipped." Is this an admission that it was altered after it was struck?
TD >>
Maybe, though if I had to place a bet I'd say the seller simply doesn't understand the way clipped planchets are created. If you click the link higher up on the page, the wording was identical when the coin "sold" for $750 earlier this month.
Sean Reynolds >>
Yeah, probably bad grammar rather than a subtle admission of truth!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Like a bad penny, the auction for the bad penny is back up yet again. same seller as when I started this thread a couple of years ago.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
The first thing that hit me was how such a dramatic error would have circulated. One could say that someone found it in the 1920s and kept it as a pocket piece, but doubtful. There are several other problems with this fake error, as others have stated.
<< <i>It's hard to imagine anyone taking a 1922-plain that looks to be AU (if not better) and then damaging it to give the illusion of being a clip. >>
That was also my thought.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Hard to believe after a six year gap, but the original seller has this coin back up for sale again, this time at the relative bargain price of $599 - link to the latest auction.
The pictures are new but the coin is just as bad as it was eight years ago when I first shared it.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
So, the tpg won't put into a holder because the clip is ng or they can't determine the coin to be genuine? To me, the coin still looks pretty real. If they started it at 99 cents, it would probably bring several hundred.
Comments
of the clip show that it is without a doubt
a man-made clip, and not a genuine clipped
planchet (or 'incomplete planchet', as some
like to use the more accurate term).
Sometimes, such as in this case, the scans
the seller provides are not sufficient to
determine authenticity - but since he added
the 'inside' scans, that killed any possible
chance it was real......
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
As has been suggested, this could have been a genuine coin with some sort of major damage in the missing area, such as a hole.
Attempting a fake clip on such a coin would be a major gamble, as people like us might detect it.
This makes me wonder if perhaps, despite the fantastic appearance and color of the unaffected area, the host coin is not a killer counterfeit? I am reminded of the best counterfeit 1909-SVDB I ever saw. That was back in 1981, and that piece was struck over a genuine Lincoln cent.
That SVDB counterfeit had excellent surface detail copied from a genuine coin. I suspect that a 1922 "No D" cent would be easier to copy, as most of the detail is naturally mushy. If struck over a well-worn wheat cent from the teens as a planchet, which could give you that fine woodgrain effect, the only way to detect it might be the weight loss from the circulation of the host coin.
I am not saying that that is what happened here. I am merely calling upon the TPG's to start paying closer attention to all 1922 "No D" cents.
TD
EDIT: I found and uploaded the pics from the posts on the first page.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Thanks for this update.
As was brought out last year, there
is no metal flow towards the void;
it's easiest to see this on the reverse,
where there are some letters that
simply 'drop off' where the clip is;
there should be some metal flow at least.
It's NG
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
This thing could be reported and brought down.
Is it the same seller as last time: theconsignmenthub ??
<< <i>Sean, did you save pictures of the cut?
This thing could be reported and brought down.
Is it the same seller as last time: theconsignmenthub ?? >>
Huh, apparently I did save the edge photo too:
I think this is the same seller, I remember it was a consignment type service, but I can't be 100% sure. There's no point in reporting the auction with my pics as evidence since eBay has no way of knowing it's the same coin. At lest by bumping the thread here, it will keep board members from being tempted.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Ah the coinsignmenthub, they have had some sketchy listings. >>
Yep...been on my "unscrupulous sellers to avoid" list for quite a while...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
bad two years ago, that edge view of
the 'clip' area is the final straw.
Stick a fork in the coin - there is NO
cut/tear marks whatsoever.
Also, noted years ago, there are suspicious
rim flattened areas in the following points:
The Rim above "E" of We" on the Obverse
The Rim at the "U" of "Uribus on the Rev.
The Rim at 7:30 below the Wheat Stalk 0n the Rev.
No Metal Flow Whatsoever.
Besides those points above, there is another factor
that to me, at least, is very obvious why the seller
knows the piece is NO GOOD: He hasn't been able
to get it in ANY TPG holder. I know it hasn't been
submitted to PCGS, and I strongly feel it probably
hasn't been to NGC or ANACS either.
He's had almost two years to verify it's authenticity;
a coin like that should be in a holder by now, by someone,
if it were genuine.
FAKE CLIP - No Doubt WhatsoEver !
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
TD
<< <i>Note the wording "Has been clipped." Is this an admission that it was altered after it was struck?
TD >>
Maybe, though if I had to place a bet I'd say the seller simply doesn't understand the way clipped planchets are created. If you click the link higher up on the page, the wording was identical when the coin "sold" for $750 earlier this month.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>Note the wording "Has been clipped." Is this an admission that it was altered after it was struck?
TD >>
Maybe, though if I had to place a bet I'd say the seller simply doesn't understand the way clipped planchets are created. If you click the link higher up on the page, the wording was identical when the coin "sold" for $750 earlier this month.
Sean Reynolds >>
Yeah, probably bad grammar rather than a subtle admission of truth!
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>same seller as when I started this thread a couple of years ago. >>
good lord. i've been tracking this possibly the whole time with you. i think it was even listed with another seller at some point.
.
"We do not know whether the clip was done at The Mint or Not. "
I wonder if it means they sent it in and it didn't get slabbed.
<< <i>They say:
"We do not know whether the clip was done at The Mint or Not. "
I wonder if it means they sent it in and it didn't get slabbed. >>
It would appear this is the sellers 'catch all' statement and does begin to raise a red flag...it's hooked up waiting for revelry.
Way to risky to find out it's PMD
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>It's hard to imagine anyone taking a 1922-plain that looks to be AU (if not better) and then damaging it to give the illusion of being a clip. >>
That was also my thought.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Hard to believe after a six year gap, but the original seller has this coin back up for sale again, this time at the relative bargain price of $599 - link to the latest auction.
The pictures are new but the coin is just as bad as it was eight years ago when I first shared it.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
So, the tpg won't put into a holder because the clip is ng or they can't determine the coin to be genuine? To me, the coin still looks pretty real. If they started it at 99 cents, it would probably bring several hundred.
Where is CAC when you need it.