What are the characteristics of the coin that must be bought, even at a moon price?
TahoeDale
Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
First, some caveats.
This doesn't require a large bankroll to respond. But it might help if you are considering( or have considered) paying way over "market"for a coin in your collecting years.
List the elements, and even reference the particular coin that deserves such unreasonable price.
I'll start with
1. One of a kind, not to become available again for years
2. Finest known, with no close competitors.
3. The best eye appealing coin for the series.
4. A significant number of potential buyers( you know you will have stiff competition)
I will list a few that I have seen go to the outer planets, or will when they come available:
1794 dollar in SP 66
1804 dollar in MS67
1794 half dollar in MS64
1806 bust half in MS66
and a little one, that I once owned-- the fabulous 1879/8 shield nickel in Pr 69.
There are many other very expensive coins( over 1 million dollars) but some may be aquired without a lot of competion, due to cost.
I have left out many others-- your job to name them, and why they will get monstrous premiums.
This doesn't require a large bankroll to respond. But it might help if you are considering( or have considered) paying way over "market"for a coin in your collecting years.
List the elements, and even reference the particular coin that deserves such unreasonable price.
I'll start with
1. One of a kind, not to become available again for years
2. Finest known, with no close competitors.
3. The best eye appealing coin for the series.
4. A significant number of potential buyers( you know you will have stiff competition)
I will list a few that I have seen go to the outer planets, or will when they come available:
1794 dollar in SP 66
1804 dollar in MS67
1794 half dollar in MS64
1806 bust half in MS66
and a little one, that I once owned-- the fabulous 1879/8 shield nickel in Pr 69.
There are many other very expensive coins( over 1 million dollars) but some may be aquired without a lot of competion, due to cost.
I have left out many others-- your job to name them, and why they will get monstrous premiums.
TahoeDale
0
Comments
Whatever the coin, the "monstrous premium" is far from guaranteed. In 30+ years of attending most major auctions, I've seen virtually every imaginable type of wonder coins sell for a song, sometime and somewhere. Not that I'm suggesting that one should always wait for a bargain. It's just that if you're going to pay "moon money", you should at least be sure that the coin is worth it to you.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Some million dollar coins don't get that reaction from me, some much cheaper coins do. You know it when you see it - something you MUST have. It is all in the eye of the beholder. Because it is not rational, it cannot be written down completely. It's not rarity only, it's not condition only, it's not opportunity only. It's love.
PCGS has graded only one other 1838-D half eagle MS-63 and there are none higher. This coin looks nicer than any of the other Classic Head half eagles, including the Philadelphia mint pieces, that I have seen graded MS-63. Those factors along with my collector fascination with the Dahlonega mint prompted me to pay the record price.
Since I don’t intent to sell this piece in the near future, I was not really thinking about where I will sell it and how much I might get for it when the day comes. For me this piece was sort of a “consumer good,” and I doubt that I’m going see or have a chance to ever buy at better example.
That was my thought process.
If a person asks any particular dealer that specializes in high end coins, they might say 80% of their inventory is worth paying up for, worth "stretching" for. If nice coins aren't moving in this current market, the true market value for said coins may not be the high asking price. Those nice coins might sell for less, possibly way less, at true auction, depending on which bidders show up. Again, if smart folks can figure out that they are truly rare and desirable coins, they are smart enough to up their market price and price them to the moon. Whether they are worth the moon and the stars at auction, often depends if two or more bidders with near unlimited funds decide they "have to have it."
And yes, I did pay a premium for a couple of other coins at the FUN show. I bought the 1854-D three dollar gold in PCGS AU-55 that Legend had for sale for a bit more than one expert in the field thought it was worth.
So far I was concened it had a lot going for it. It is very scarce; it has its original skin; the grade assinged is exactly right; and it's attractive for an 1854-D $3 gold. But once more a premium of a few thandsand is not exactly "moon money."
TDN, are you familiar with the specific 1806 bust half TahoeDale is referring to? I am sure he is referring to the Eliasberg 1806 that has been graded by PCGS as MS67. Noted bust half dollar expert Sheridan Downey called that the single finest draped bust half, period! The 1806 half in your type set, TDN, is an awesome coin, but here is the comparison. Your coin (currently graded MS65) realized $92K last January; the Eliasberg 1806 half realized $126,500 all the way back in 1997. It is beyond being a monster coin. It is to the Draped Bust halves what your (Ex:Eliasberg-Blay) 1807 quarter is to the Draped Bust Quarters. So, I can see a bust half collector, especially one seeking the finest specimens, viewing that coin as a "must have."
A coin does not have to be rare to command crazy money!
<< <i>Anyone remember that monster 1898 PCGS PR65 DC Morgan from heritage Coinfest sale??? That was a coin that was worthy of moon money. It sold for $19,550.00. A regular one is worth $5,000.00.
A coin does not have to be rare to command crazy money! >>
My 1898 Half in PC 65 CAM - paled in comparison. The DC remains
engraved in my memory !!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
<< <i>No, the 1806 in question is the Garrett coin and wasn't a moon money coin despite the owner thinking it was >>
Ahh...well then I would have to agree with you. Garrett had a number of great coins, but not all were.
Known as "THE coin"
I was an underbidder and regret not buying it.
Here is what Doug Winter said about it the coin:
1864 Quarter Eagle, NGC PR65 Cameo, CAC Gold Label. Lot 5033. I have seen some pretty incredible Proof quarter eagles over the years but the truly amazing ones, at least from the standpoint of grade, tend to be date 1890 and later. Pre-1880 Proof gold coinage tends to be far, far rarer and really superb pieces, regardless of denomination, are almost never seen.
This 1864 Proof quarter eagle was from the Henry Miller collection and it was easily the best Proof quarter eagle in the sale. I’d even go out on a limb here and say that it was one of the best–if not THE best–early date Proof of this denomination that I’ve seen. It was in an old PR65 holder but I graded it PR67 DCAM. The coin sold for $80,500 which is a record price for a Proof of this year.
Only 50 Proofs of this year were made and I doubt if more than fifteen or so exist. The best that I had ever seen before the Miller coin was Bass III: 210, graded PR66 by PCGS, that sold for a very reasonable $27,600 back in 2000.
This coin was purchased by an extremely savvy dealer and it will be interesting to see what grade it will be after it is resubmitted for grading. I’d love to think that PCGS or NGC would call it a PR67 DCAM without it having to be conserved.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>1793 chain cent GEM BU prooflike, ex-Mickley, Brand, Naftzger, etc
Known as "THE coin" >>
One of my personal favorites, but there are other superb gem chain cents
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Seated 25c by mint-mark; they know, I don't
or some "VF details, cleaned" Bust H10c that's catalogued as having "an interesting die break".
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Whatever the coin, the "monstrous premium" is far from guaranteed. In 30+ years of attending most major auctions, I've seen virtually every imaginable type of wonder coins sell for a song, sometime and somewhere. Not that I'm suggesting that one should always wait for a bargain. It's just that if you're going to pay "moon money", you should at least be sure that the coin is worth it to you.
Yes. Even the great 1794 SP66 dollar was trashed -66% during the 1991-1993 coin market. There is nothing guaranteed....exception promotions and puffery....LOL.
roadrunner
An extremely rare and very beautiful 1849-C Open Wreath gold dollar, graded XF45 by NGC, is the crown jewel of The Longfellow Collection and leads the list of rarities offered by Heritage Auctions as part its February 2010 Long Beach U.S. Coin Auction, Feb. 3-7, at the Long Beach Convention Center, 100 S. Pine Avenue. It is estimated at $300,000+.
would go well over the estimate, ended up at $218,500.00 including BP.
I would split your #1 reason of "one of a kind, not to become available again for years," into 2 categories, as I can see each element present without the other.
In terms of #2 "Finest known, with no close competitors" I would agree as long as there is some reasonable eye appeal, although the money that some of the R.7 early coppers in "left out in the rain condition" argues against this. But overall, over-the-top eye appeal rarely hurts.
I would add that an impressive provenance and/or a good story is usually helpful. The Eliasberg 1913 nickel that sold privately for 5 million dollars is a good example of this. Although it did not make reserve at 4.1 million at auction just a few months before, so go figure.
To elaborate on Questor54's insightful comments, I think the common denominator is that there ultimately needs to be some euphoric surge to boost a bidder/buyer into the realm of stratospheric offers, regardless of which of the previously mentioned elements stokes the emotional fire.
As you know, I'm not afraid to pay premium money for a coin, but have had only one foray into the "Moon money" category, with my 1824/2/0:
I didn't buy it out of the ANR auction, but purchased it later (for just a bit less than the auction price).
Here's part of the auction description from 2006:
In 1972, Walter Breen described this half dollar...[as]... "Brill. Unc., acquiring light golden and darker iridescent tone; frosty, magnificent gem. By far the finest we have handled; certainly unsurpassed, most likely unequalled. Double profile on back of cap, curls, ribbons. Sharp enough impression on rev. to show more fine detail in feathers (neck and arrows most of all) than we have ever seen on another half dollar."
The coin had been off the market from 1972-2006. The appeal is outrageous, and it had a nice history.
So was it smart to pay 246% of the retail list? I can't really answer. Nor can I know whether I'll get 246% of what I paid for it, or whether it will financially bomb Joe Thomas style when it eventually leaves my possession. But, I can say that I truly enjoy owning this sublime aesthetic treasure. Sure I could have bought gold bullion in 2002, or Netflix in 2008, but the pleasure that this coin provides for me transcends money or profit.
I do believe that I owned the above half for a bit. Paid moon money out of auction - beautiful coin.
<< <i>The reserve on the 1913 was $5.1M, not $4.1M >>
Thanks for the correction. My mistake. The hammer reserve was 4.4 million, hence the 5.1 million total reserve. In any case it did not immediately sell in that auction, although it's soon-after private sale somewhat mutes my point.
<< <i>I do believe that I owned the above half for a bit. Paid moon money out of auction - beautiful coin. >>
Thanks. And Agree.
But then this begs the reverse question: what makes a collector lose interest in a coin that they paid "Moon money" for?
<< <i>
I have left out many others-- your job to name them, and why they will get monstrous premiums. >>
The most expensive error coin is a good example of a coin for which "moon money" was shelled out: the 1943-D copper cent. It went for $1.7 million, and totally blew away the old record for an error coin. Personally, I believe it went for far more than it was worth (I value it around $750K), but the buyer obviously was willing to pay "whatever it takes" to buy the coin. Why? Because it's unique and they wanted a complete set of the copper cents. Also, copper 1943 (PD or S mint) are the most popular and well known error coin out there, so it is fitting that the '43-D would be the most expensive error coin in the world. That said, will the buyer ever get their money back if they eventually sale it (adjusted for inflation at the time of the sale, of course)? Who knows, but of they have the money to pay $1.7 million for the coin, I doubt they're too worried about the long-term resale value.
Jon
<< <i>
<< <i>
I have left out many others-- your job to name them, and why they will get monstrous premiums. >>
The most expensive error coin is a good example of a coin for which "moon money" was shelled out: the 1943-D copper cent. It went for $1.7 million, and totally blew away the old record for an error coin. Personally, I believe it went for far more than it was worth (I value it around $750K), but the buyer obviously was willing to pay "whatever it takes" to buy the coin. Why? Because it's unique and they wanted a complete set of the copper cents. Also, copper 1943 (PD or S mint) are the most popular and well known error coin out there, so it is fitting that the '43-D would be the most expensive error coin in the world. That said, will the buyer ever get their money back if they eventually sale it (adjusted for inflation at the time of the sale, of course)? Who knows, but of they have the money to pay $1.7 million for the coin, I doubt they're too worried about the long-term resale value.
Jon >>
As I understand it there is some controversy about whether that coin is an error or an intentional off-metal strike. Has it even been suggested that it was made at the request of J. R. Sinnock?
A coin that, for whatever reason(s), makes your heart race, makes you not want to stop looking at/put it down and about which you don't care if you will be able to get your money out of it, if you ever decide to sell it.
I guess that sounds right. Although I remember sitting at the Eliasberg world gold sale, buying the coin in my sig line (and a few others) for far more than I had expected to pay, and it was more painful than fun. But it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and I had no choice.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
There aren't supposed to be a lot of them.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Now, to be more specific, a moon money coin is one that:
1. has no equal or few with sufficient buyers to compete for the coin, OR
2. has many equals but also has many contenders for them.
Examples:
1. The first group is like TDN's coin, "the MS65 1873-CC seated dollar ... where the next finest is 4 grades below." Not too many people have the cash or inclination to buy a coin like that but there is only one of them so all you need is for two entities to want it badly, like TDN and a consortium of Saudi Arabian oil sheiks, and then moom money will be asked and rationally paid.
2. The second group might be exemplified by toned common date Morgans. There are plenty of them out there but there are also many collectors of them. The ones that are clearly original and possessed of the best and most intense colors splayed out across the whole coin's obverse with the cleanest surfaces are likely to bring 50 times sheet or more.
Like this coin:
<< <i>bidask, I saw that 1864 Quarter Eagle at FUN Auction lot viewing. It is in an old NGC "fattie" holder and I showed it to Mr. Blay who was sitting right next to me at viewing. We both graded it PR67 DeepCameo as well. Getting to look closely at that early Proof was one of the highlights of the show for me. >>
The 1864 2 1/2 Lib proof was truly amazing, I had the opportunity to view it as well and have to agree that it was one amazing proof gold coin. The O' Neal fives were amazing as well, all out of my league but a joy to look at none the less.
Another 1873-CC that comes to mind is the no arrows 1873-CC seated quarter that was once owned by James A. Stack and Bob Reithe. I had the great pleasure of talking with Bob at the show about that coin, neither of us have any idea where that coin is today. This coin is far better than the Eliasberg coin originally in a 62 holder, now in a 63 presently residing in the finest seated quarter set ever assembled.
Coming back down to earth, any exceptionally eye appealing coin can bring a strong premium in the right market (or as roadrunner says, in a bad market can languish just as easily). A few years ago Andy S. had a wonderful 1920-s standing quarter with exceptional color in a 64 holder that I passed on and shouldn't have, he had it for sale for around 2K. Contacted him later about the coin, and he had sent it off to auction... coin went for over 4K, twice what he was asking. Someone besides me really liked that coin and was willing to go way beyond to get it. I used this as an example of a relatively inexpensive coin that brought strong money because it had a great look.