Certainly a mistake but Im not sure if its the kind of mistake you mean.
The first closed 3 gold dollar I purchased, a PCGS coin from a forum member, turned out to be the common open 3 variety which was mis labeled.
It made it through Heritage auctions, made it through that buyer..but didnt make it through ME. I dont know the outcome after I returned it to the seller for a refund since he is one of the "missing" on this forum.
(In a way, every CAC gold sticker is a grader mistake, correct?)
My only usual complaint with TPGs is consistency...but at least I understand that, it is an opinion after all. I've been away from collecting Barber halves for many years and in the last few months and specifically in the Heritage sale, I've seen a lot of badly cleaned coins in (mostly) PCGS slabs. I am truly surprised, I never expected that. I really don't know PCGS' limits of "market acceptability", but many of these coins certainly don't meet mine.
I had an 1804 bust quarter graded pcgs g6 with a cac sticker on it that when taken to cac to ask about the sticker was told to "give them a number" because they wanted to buy it and remove the sticker.
<< <i>Sure, haven't you seen some of the mechanical errors that PCGS sends out??? Those are the biggest mistakes I think they make as they could be avoided with some additional quality control.
I remember one dealer showing me a coin he got back from PCGS... it was a key date Indian Cent in an MS holder... too bad the coin was probably an F or maybe a VF on a good day!!!
I recently got back a coin w/ a supposed "mechanical error" as well... not fun!!! >>
How could that be a fault of the grader/s? The slabbed coins are given a final inspection so you would think that even the last person in the chain should know the difference between worn out and new. But doo doo happens.
I have not heard anyone state specific examples of mistakes that they have observed and what they did about it.
I purchased a very nice 1838-0 dime raw out of a Stack's auction years ago as MS64. Paid a slight + premium as well. The coin graded NGC MS64 the first time. I thought it was nicer though and wanted to see what PCGS would do with it. PCGS called it MS63 which in my opinion was too strict though being a toned coin I knew why they did it. Resubmitted again to try and bail out of the coin when NGC graded it MS65. I sold it over the phone and doubled my money. 3 different MS grades.
Another time I had a wonderful raw MS seated half that I bought out of the Vermeulle collection in 2001. Paid strong MS66 money for that coin. It graded NGC MS65 and I was devastated at it would have meant a $2,000 loss. Resubmitted it and it went MS67. I sold it for a $2,000 profit. In this sitution I felt they got the grade wrong both times. That original submission with the seated half was unusual because nearly every coin came back one pt lower than I expected, the half was 2 pts lower. On resubmission that entire and unchanged submission went up an average of 1 pt.
Purchased an 1862 quarter raw out of an auction for MS64ish money. It came back a NGC 62 or about a 75% loss. For whatever reason I cracked it out and consigned it raw to auction figuring I'd get at least 63+ money for it. Nope...sold for MS62 money....to the same underbidder when I first bought it as 64. Saw the coin about 6 months later at auction in a MS64 holder....LOL. Now that took the cake. This lead me to create an axiom which basically said that any MS type coin that can be construed to be the next grade up, will eventually get there, with or without you. This was before things tightened up in 2009-2010. It could be entirely different today.
Of course there are "mistakes" as well where the grades stayed well under my goals where I lost significant money. Those aren't as much fun to discuss. And the "mistakes" were probably all mine.
The PCGS grading contest has already shown that the best dealers are only 80-85% accurate on their own. And I would submit that while 3 independent graders at 80% accuracy "should" theoretically produce a net TEAM accuracy of 99%, reality seems to show something quite different. My own experiences with mint state seated, bust, barber coins over the past 25 years would imply an overall TPG accuracy of 65-80% on a single attempt. That may vary for other series and grades. I've always said that to find the true market grade of a coin you probably need at least 3-5 submissions, potentially up to 10. Whatever grade it comes back the most often is the proper grade. We all expect way too much on a single grading event. I'm ok with 2 out of 3, 2 out of 2, or 3 out of 5 as being the "correct" grade. I'm far less comfortable with 1 out of 2, or 1 out of 3. There are coins out there that have achieved their current grades on 1 of 5, 1 of 10, and possibly even 1 of 20 attempts. There was one time where I resubmitted a MS64 seated quarter 4 times because it was so darn nice and I didn't want to settle for MS64 and leave money on the table. There was no + offered back then which would have solved the problem. The coin came back 64 every time so I was confident it was a very solid 64 coin. The next owner got the upgrade to 65 which then made it a 1 out 5 coin....or imo still a 64+ coin.
Don't know if anyone else pointed this out yet but it's all a matter of how you define a grading "mistake". What one person considers a mistake another may not. Also, the grade in question may conform to that services standard even though others may consider it a mistake.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
This is a little OT but in the same vein. How many coins that were graded by a company 25 years ago would be graded differently today, given the technological advances in digital imaging, etc? As technology advances, so does the level of scrutiny these coins experience.
This may be the reason the "+" designations have been introduced.
Remember... grading is quite easy... anyone can do it (and being subjective, there is NO chance of "making" a mistake... other than perhaps attribution)...
Again... grading is easy... look at the coin and assign a grade...
Now... getting others to AGREE with the grade... that's the hard part
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>I am talking professional graders at PCGS,NGC and CAC.
Stewart Blay >>
You're speaking as if you rely on graders being 100% accurate, or expect them to be. If that is the case, then my answer is definitely yes, they make mistakes.
Look at this forum, and some of the other more popular numismatic forums, and see how many people resubmit, which would be due to their inacceptance of the the grade opinion given by a TPG.
Coin grading as a whole, is entirely subjective and not a 100% guaranteed. You get what you pay for, the opinion of a TPG, nothing more.
Comments
The first closed 3 gold dollar I purchased, a PCGS coin from a forum member, turned out to be the common open 3 variety which was mis labeled.
It made it through Heritage auctions, made it through that buyer..but didnt make it through ME. I dont know the outcome after I returned it to the seller for a refund since he is one of the "missing" on this forum.
(In a way, every CAC gold sticker is a grader mistake, correct?)
<< <i>Fact is we all make mistakes when evaluating or appraising or grading coins. PCGS tends to admit it when they do make a mistake.
That is why their buy back policy or their guarantee is the best in the business. Sometimes it is too good in my opinion. I have seen PCGS buy coins
back for too much money.
I have not heard anyone state specific examples of mistakes that they have observed and what they did about it.
Stewart >>
.........if a single grader makes a mistake , theoretically such a mistake would be caught by a second or third grader ; or the finalizer.
Thats the concept PCGS was founded on .
Mr. Stewart ,
The F.U.N show has come to an end ; what happened when you re-submitted the penny that you had cracked out and got the tooled opinion ?
<< <i>Sure, haven't you seen some of the mechanical errors that PCGS sends out??? Those are the biggest mistakes I think they make as they could be avoided with some additional quality control.
I remember one dealer showing me a coin he got back from PCGS... it was a key date Indian Cent in an MS holder... too bad the coin was probably an F or maybe a VF on a good day!!!
I recently got back a coin w/ a supposed "mechanical error" as well... not fun!!! >>
How could that be a fault of the grader/s? The slabbed coins are given a final inspection so you would think that even the last person in the chain should know the difference between worn out and new. But doo doo happens.
<< <i>Of course they make mistakes-only on your coins Stewart! >>
........on these boards I observed a lengthy thread you started about a F.E cent and the mistake PCGS made on it -
what they did about it ? you have not divulged that yet
I purchased a very nice 1838-0 dime raw out of a Stack's auction years ago as MS64. Paid a slight + premium as well. The coin graded NGC MS64 the first time. I thought it was nicer though and wanted to see what PCGS would do with it. PCGS called it MS63 which in my opinion was too strict though being a toned coin I knew why they did it. Resubmitted again to try and bail out of the coin when NGC graded it MS65. I sold it over the phone and doubled my money. 3 different MS grades.
Another time I had a wonderful raw MS seated half that I bought out of the Vermeulle collection in 2001. Paid strong MS66 money for that coin. It graded NGC MS65 and I was devastated at it would have meant a $2,000 loss. Resubmitted it and it went MS67. I sold it for a $2,000 profit. In this sitution I felt they got the grade wrong both times. That original submission with the seated half was unusual because nearly every coin came back one pt lower than I expected, the half was 2 pts lower. On resubmission that entire and unchanged submission went up an average of 1 pt.
Purchased an 1862 quarter raw out of an auction for MS64ish money. It came back a NGC 62 or about a 75% loss. For whatever reason I cracked it out and consigned it raw to auction figuring I'd get at least 63+ money for it. Nope...sold for MS62 money....to the same underbidder when I first bought it as 64. Saw the coin about 6 months later at auction in a MS64 holder....LOL. Now that took the cake. This lead me to create an axiom which basically said that any MS type coin that can be construed to be the next grade up, will eventually get there, with or without you. This was before things tightened up in 2009-2010. It could be entirely different today.
Of course there are "mistakes" as well where the grades stayed well under my goals where I lost significant money. Those aren't as much fun to discuss. And the "mistakes" were probably all mine.
The PCGS grading contest has already shown that the best dealers are only 80-85% accurate on their own. And I would submit that while 3 independent graders at 80% accuracy "should" theoretically produce a net TEAM accuracy of 99%, reality seems to show something quite different. My own experiences with mint state seated, bust, barber coins over the past 25 years would imply an overall TPG accuracy of 65-80% on a single attempt. That may vary for other series and grades. I've always said that to find the true market grade of a coin you probably need at least 3-5 submissions, potentially up to 10. Whatever grade it comes back the most often is the proper grade. We all expect way too much on a single grading event. I'm ok with 2 out of 3, 2 out of 2, or 3 out of 5 as being the "correct" grade. I'm far less comfortable with 1 out of 2, or 1 out of 3. There are coins out there that have achieved their current grades on 1 of 5, 1 of 10, and possibly even 1 of 20 attempts. There was one time where I resubmitted a MS64 seated quarter 4 times because it was so darn nice and I didn't want to settle for MS64 and leave money on the table. There was no + offered back then which would have solved the problem. The coin came back 64 every time so I was confident it was a very solid 64 coin. The next owner got the upgrade to 65 which then made it a 1 out 5 coin....or imo still a 64+ coin.
roadrunner
.....................................................
However,
Don't know if anyone else pointed this out yet but it's all a matter of how you define a grading "mistake". What one person considers a mistake another may not. Also, the grade in question may conform to that services standard even though others may consider it a mistake.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
As technology advances, so does the level of scrutiny these coins experience.
This may be the reason the "+" designations have been introduced.
Again... grading is easy... look at the coin and assign a grade...
Now... getting others to AGREE with the grade... that's the hard part
and that you were returning the coin to PCGs at the recent FUN show ; what was the outcome ?
<< <i>I am talking professional graders at PCGS,NGC and CAC.
Stewart Blay >>
You're speaking as if you rely on graders being 100% accurate, or expect them to be. If that is the case, then my answer is definitely yes, they make mistakes.
Look at this forum, and some of the other more popular numismatic forums, and see how many people resubmit, which would be due to their inacceptance of the the grade opinion given by a TPG.
Coin grading as a whole, is entirely subjective and not a 100% guaranteed. You get what you pay for, the opinion of a TPG, nothing more.
the answer will probably never be known. and, that in turn...will be the answer.