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How come Will Clark never made HOF?

akuracy503akuracy503 Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
He was my favorite player in the era, what was his downfall for HOF status? He had the stats no?

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  • HallcoHallco Posts: 3,651 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Most people think he retired too soon. If he had played longer, his stats would have probably been more comparable and thus would have been a stronger candidate. Great player though! image
  • bman90278bman90278 Posts: 3,453 ✭✭✭
    image

    Brian
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  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭
    The second half of his career was limited by injuries, though he still put up really good numbers while he was on the field. That kept him from amassing the milestones usually associated with HoF careers.

    After an awesome 51 game campaign with the Cards in 2000 where he posted monster numbers (.345/.426/.655), the call of the wild (fish'n and hunt'n) was greater than the call of baseball.

    He's still a legend in SF though, and will probably never have to buy his own drinks around town.

    I wish that the team would treat his jersey number (22) with respect. Right now the backup catcher Eli Whiteside is wearing it. image
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  • alnavmanalnavman Posts: 4,129 ✭✭✭
    Probably for the same reasons Dale Murphy is having hard time getting in.....and Murphy's stats were better.....
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>Probably for the same reasons Dale Murphy is having hard time getting in >>



    Clark fell off the ballot in his first year of eligibility, so no.
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  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    Don Mattingly had better numbers than Will the Thrill, and it's doubtful that he's going in.
  • swartz1swartz1 Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭
    A couple good years does not make a Hall of Famer... Clark

    Numerous average years does not make a hall of Famer... Murphy


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  • CNoteCNote Posts: 2,070 ✭
    Will Clark in the HOF? Really?


    Geez....if that happened, it'd be like the NBA playoffs and they'd just anybody in.
  • akuracy503akuracy503 Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭
    Will Clark was great, I don't care what you guys think.

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  • jeffcbayjeffcbay Posts: 8,950 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Will Clark was great, I don't care what you guys think. >>



    +1

    Not HOF material, but he was one of my faves.
  • TomiTomi Posts: 643 ✭✭✭
    One of the sweetest swings ever IMO.
  • nam812nam812 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Because it's not the hall of really really good.
  • EagleEyeKidEagleEyeKid Posts: 4,496 ✭✭
    Clark was one of my favorites as well.
    Loved his performance in the 89 playoffs (Him and M. Grace show).
    I really thought he was going to stay after after showing his old form
    with the Cardinals. One of the sweetest swings in baseball.
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>Because it's not the hall of really really good. >>



    He'd be a 1st ballot lock for that Hall.
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  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    That 1989 LCS will be one I will always remember, he was on fire.

    He is not a HOF though, I'd compare him with Keith Hernandez.

    Excellent ball player who was a players player. Played the game the right way.


    Steve
    Good for you.
  • PSASAPPSASAP Posts: 2,284 ✭✭✭
    He should make it to the HOF BRAU, they close at 9. image
  • DeutscherGeistDeutscherGeist Posts: 2,990 ✭✭✭✭
    Will Clark was an excellent player and any team could use a guy like him in any season. He retired early as I believe he still had a lot to show. He never dominated per se, but he was so close to being the best for a long time that I think he needed the longevity to be in the HOF. Let us compare him to some of his peers who played first base.
    I will use sabermetrics since its more accurate than home runs, RBI or batting average.


    Rafael Palmeiro, 1B
    He ranks 143rd all time in OPS+ and was in the top 10 seven times.
    He ranks 44th all time in adjusted batting runs and was in the top 10 seven times.


    Frank Thomas, another first baseman of his era.
    He ranks 20th all time in OPS+, led the season 3 times, was in the top 10 a whole ten times.
    He ranks 15th all time in adjusted batting runs, led the season 3 times, was in the top 10 nine times.

    Don Mattingly, 1B
    He ranks 211th all time in OPS+, led the season 2 times, was in the top 10 five times
    He ranks 155th all time in adj batting runs, led the season 1 time, was in the top 10 four times.

    Fred McGriff, 1B
    He ranks 59th all time in OPS+, led the season 1 time, was in the top 10 seven times.
    He ranks 59th all time in adj batting runs, led the season 1 time, was in the top 10 seven times.

    Will Clark, 1B
    He ranks 93rd all time in OPS+, never led the season, was in the top 10 a whole 5 times.
    He ranks 72nd all time in adjusted batting runs, led the season 1 time, was in the top 10 six times.


    The thing with OPS+ is that a player from the live ball era will have inflated numbers when compared to players of the 1970s and 1980s. Will Clark does have a higher OPS+ than Mattingly, but most of the Hit Man's great seasons were in the 1980s.
    Frank Thomas is the superior first baseman here. his character and sportsmanship were never a detriment either. You can make an argument that McGwire and Palmeiro should not even be considered despite their superior stats. That leaves McGriff. It does not look like Clark was better than McGriff. While Donnie Baseball has been in the top ten 9 times compared to Clark's 11 times of those two very important stats, their peek differences are sharp. Mattingly had a superior peek. He had 9 gold gloves and set MLB records. He had the ideal character in sportsmanship. We can debate for hours of who is more deserving: Mattingly or Clark. I give the favor to Mattingly because neither had 3000 hits, but Mattingly's peek was better!

    So, you have Thomas and McGriff and a strong case for Mattingly over Clark. Does the HOF really need 4 first baseman from this era? And this is all assuming that you can negate McGwire and Palmeiro. I did not pull up all the good first baseman, so who knows if Clark remains in 3rd or 4th place if I bring up guys like John Olerud, etc.

    I remembered watching Clark on TV during that last season in St Louis. All he had to do was keep playing. He looked really good. I was so disappointed that he decided to retire. he did it on his terms, though. The Cardinals would be crazy to not have wanted him back.

    Anyway, look at it this way. In San Francisco, he can still walk on water. Many fans love him and collect him. His cards are overprinted, but they are still easy to sell. They don't bring much money, but for a 1987 card, its decent. So, appreciate Will the Thrill. He does not need the HOF in order to be remembered. Fans are already doing that.
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  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not close to a HOFer but an excellent player for sure. I was surprised that he didn't get the necessary 5% votes in his first year of eligibility to stay on the ballot. Almost as surprising as Lou Whitaker not getting the 5% threshold...............MJ
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  • Yankees001Yankees001 Posts: 1,496 ✭
    Don't get me on the Hall of Fame issue image I've had problems with it for a long time now.

    Their is a 297 game winner not inducted. He retired in 1897 I believe, Bobby Mathews. 13 Year and 297 Wins, not in image

    And the only 2 time League MVP to not get inducted, Roger Maris. Everyone else who won 2 MVP Awards was put in...

    Don't get me started....Red Schoendienst, Bobby Doerr and George Kell made it image

    The Hall of Fame is really the Hall of Jokes and the Hall of Sucking UP.

    Don't get me started.

    Dave
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,616 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>A couple good years does not make a Hall of Famer... Clark
    Numerous average years does not make a hall of Famer... Murphy >>



    A very silly statement given that Murphy won back-to-back MVP awards. They don't give those out for average years. He also had an 8-year stretch where he averaged 33 HRs back when that meant something (33, 13, 36, 36, 36, 37, 29, 44). Again, not an average feat. I'm not advocating Murphy for the HOF (though I could see the VC possibly electing him one day), but his seasons were far from average, and his level of dominance was head and shoulders above Clark.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,616 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>And the only 2 time League MVP to not get inducted, Roger Maris. Everyone else who won 2 MVP Awards was put in... >>



    Really? Tell that to Dale Murphy or Juan Gonzalez.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • swartz1swartz1 Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>A couple good years does not make a Hall of Famer... Clark
    Numerous average years does not make a hall of Famer... Murphy >>



    A very silly statement given that Murphy won back-to-back MVP awards. They don't give those out for average years. He also had an 8-year stretch where he averaged 33 HRs back when that meant something (33, 13, 36, 36, 36, 37, 29, 44). Again, not an average feat. I'm not advocating Murphy for the HOF (though I could see the VC possibly electing him one day), but his seasons were far from average, and his level of dominance was head and shoulders above Clark. >>



    In Murphy's last six season he hit 88 home runs...

    Average compared with his other seasons, as I said before...



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  • ToroToro Posts: 1,515
    The steroid era has helped or will help guys like Dal Murphy get in the Hall. As for Will the Thrill, I got into baseball because of the Giants and Athletics of the late eighties. Thinking about it, I blame them for my monster boxes of 89 Topps, 91 Donruss and 92 Fleer.
  • GriffinsGriffins Posts: 6,076 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Because it's not the hall of really really good. >>



    Actually, with Blyleven and Maz it has really become that.

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  • rip8cp1rip8cp1 Posts: 29
    I agree, Will Clark was one of my favorites, but not HOF material.



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  • saucywombatsaucywombat Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭
    If there was a HOF for players who influenced the card hobby, then Clark is a definite HOF.

    Otherwise not showing enough power as a 1B for his career and as more of a singles hitter he didn't rake in the batting titles or career hits to get in.
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  • ReljacReljac Posts: 758


    << <i>
    In Murphy's last six season he hit 88 home runs...

    Average compared with his other seasons, as I said before... >>



    well good thing that the last six seasons aren't the measure of who gets into the Hall of Fame:
    Mickey Mantle 1963-1968 132 HRs, 357 RBI, .269 BA (yes, average of only 60 RBI per year...)

    The final six years for Murphy include two seasons in which he played only 18 & 26 games. Before those the other 4 years he still averaged over 20 homers a year, over 80 RBI a year.

    The final 4-Full Year comparison would be something similar to:
    Mickey Mantle .254 BA, 82 HR, 211 RBI (Age 33-36)
    Dale Murphy .238 BA, 86 HR, 325 RBI (Age 32-35)
  • ReljacReljac Posts: 758
    Growing up as a kid in Atlanta in the 80's I can't say enough good things about Murphy... He was a portrait for baseball in the 80s, but the plus side of his career 1980-1988 was probably too short for hall of Fame consideration.

    On that same note though, and at the risk of enraging all the Sandy Koufax fans..I do think that Murphy deserves as much consideration to the Hall of Fame as Sandy Koufax does.
  • Yankees001Yankees001 Posts: 1,496 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>And the only 2 time League MVP to not get inducted, Roger Maris. Everyone else who won 2 MVP Awards was put in... >>



    Really? Tell that to Dale Murphy or Juan Gonzalez. >>



    Sorry, I don't consider Murphy or Gonzales in the arguement. They are both modern players, and have not been denied every year they were on the ballot. I guess Gonzales can be considered since I don't think he is on the ballot anymore, but I just have problems considering modern playes when they could still be on the ballot.

    Murphy HOF, YES he was better than Doerr, Kell, and Schoendienst (Iguess Kruk go in also). As a Yankees fan I'm still trying to figure out how Rizzuto made it???

    I have no problem with Schoendienst being placed in the Hall, for the life time achievement award. Not as a Player or Manager..

    Dave
  • leathtechleathtech Posts: 3,191 ✭
    can Mark Grace get it too... I think he was baseball's leader in doubles during the 90's.
    image
  • onebamafanonebamafan Posts: 1,318 ✭✭
    Will should have stayed a little tighter with his boy Palmeiro, he could have extended his career another 5-7 years, or at least Raffy's trainer. image
  • CEOBIDMCCEOBIDMC Posts: 275
    Will the The Thrill was, and is a class guy. Cannot say the same about Palmeiro.

    I would have no problem putting Roger maris in the HOF nor Dale Murphy, both 2 time MVP's and great ambassadors of the game, stand up guys, quiet professionals.
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭


    << <i>Will should have stayed a little tighter with his boy Palmeiro >>



    They were never friends. Raffy resented Will Clark's fame. His jealousy over Will probably helped drive him to juice.

    After Raffy got busted in 2005, Clark was interviewed by ESPN and asked about his thoughts on the whole thing. Clark pretty much called Raffy a cheat and a liar.

    The best part of the interview was when they asked Clark "If you saw him today, what would you say to him?" Clark laughed wickedly and said "Ha ha ha! You got caught, partner!"


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  • fiveninerfiveniner Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Don't get me on the Hall of Fame issue image I've had problems with it for a long time now.

    Their is a 297 game winner not inducted. He retired in 1897 I believe, Bobby Mathews. 13 Year and 297 Wins, not in image

    And the only 2 time League MVP to not get inducted, Roger Maris. Everyone else who won 2 MVP Awards was put in...

    Don't get me started....Red Schoendienst, Bobby Doerr and George Kell made it image

    The Hall of Fame is really the Hall of Jokes and the Hall of Sucking UP.

    Don't get me started.

    Dave >>

    Tony(AN ANGEL WATCHES OVER ME)
  • fiveninerfiveniner Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Don't get me on the Hall of Fame issue image I've had problems with it for a long time now.

    Their is a 297 game winner not inducted. He retired in 1897 I believe, Bobby Mathews. 13 Year and 297 Wins, not in image

    And the only 2 time League MVP to not get inducted, Roger Maris. Everyone else who won 2 MVP Awards was put in...

    Don't get me started....Red Schoendienst, Bobby Doerr and George Kell made it image

    The Hall of Fame is really the Hall of Jokes and the Hall of Sucking UP.

    Don't get me started.

    Dave >>



    I fully agree with Dave.HOF is the Hall Of Sucking up. I know most fans are not going to agree with this one how does summersulting Ozzie Smith who made too many plays look harder than they really were to show off his circus act get in the Hall and we can not get Trammel or Santo in who were much better player than Ozzie?
    Tony(AN ANGEL WATCHES OVER ME)
  • fkwfkw Posts: 1,766 ✭✭
    Clarks best season (number wise) was his last 1/2 season in St.L. at 36 years old ........ made no sense to retire when he did, it killed his chances for HOF

    based on 588 ABs, his last year averaged.......... 41 HRs, 51 2Bs, 144 RBIs, .345 AVE, .655 SLUG, .426 OBP

    Before that though, his power numbers always looked to be going down IMO especially in his late 20's to early 30's

    Clark is really just another.... Grace, Hrbek, Mattingly, Hernandez, Garvey, Buckner, Horner, Galarraga, Joyner, Cooper, Evans, Oliver, Kingman, etc.
  • SmuggoSmuggo Posts: 425 ✭
    "Clark is really just another.... Grace, Hrbek, Mattingly, Hernandez, Garvey, Buckner, Horner, Galarraga, Joyner, Cooper, Evans, Oliver, Kingman, etc."

    With one important difference, none of them had a message on their answering machine saying, "The Thrill is Gone."
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  • fkwfkw Posts: 1,766 ✭✭


    << <i> Their is a 297 game winner not inducted. He retired in 1897 I believe, Bobby Mathews. 13 Year and 297 Wins, not in image

    And the only 2 time League MVP to not get inducted, Roger Maris. Everyone else who won 2 MVP Awards was put in... >>



    What???
    Mathews won 166 games in 10 years... Maris had 3 above average seasons, and other 9 were so-so at best.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Frank

    Give the guy a break, you know as well as I do that he was including Mathews time in the National Association.

    Good for you.
  • larryallen73larryallen73 Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭
    I'd put in Garvey before Will... but of course I am a Dodger fan.

    Will was a great player no doubt but I would never consider him HOF worthy. Without looking at stats I just go on my first instinct and it's a NO.
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭
    I'm a fanatical Giants fan, and even I don't think Will is a Cooperstown Hall of Famer. I do think that the Giants should retire his number though. He was the Giants brightest star in the 80s.
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  • Yankees001Yankees001 Posts: 1,496 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i> Their is a 297 game winner not inducted. He retired in 1897 I believe, Bobby Mathews. 13 Year and 297 Wins, not in image

    And the only 2 time League MVP to not get inducted, Roger Maris. Everyone else who won 2 MVP Awards was put in... >>



    What???
    Mathews won 166 games in 10 years... Maris had 3 above average seasons, and other 9 were so-so at best. >>



    Bobby T. Mathews Played 1871-1887 Won 297 Lost 248 15 Year Career I guess you looked wrong.

    Totals are for all Major League Seasons, no minor league years.

    Have a nice day
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Yankees, the thing is some do not feel that years spent in the NA count.

    To be honest, I'm not sure MLB recognizes it.

    At least at one time it didn't.

    That may have changed, last I heard they did not.


    Steve
    Good for you.
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