Is there no strike premium for S-mint Walkers? Help me understand this, Walker guys...

bushmaster8

I don't understand how a coin like this Full Hand 1941-S can sell for the same money as a run -of- the -mill flat strike example.

Is it because there is no equivalent of a "FBL" registry set?

Or does there exist a premium for full hand s-mints and this is an exception that somehow just flew by under the radar??

RWB

Looks much nicer than most - I'd consider the sale price a considerable premium over a $40 coin.

dirtybird

I think there is a premium for well-struck Walkers but this particular coin just doesn't have the right look...not a very flashy coin by any stretch. Does have a very good strike but no eye appeal.

Connecticoin

That is a nice coin -- the price was a bargain.

I once sold a PCGS 64 41-S on eBay that went for $230 -- about $55 over Greysheet -- because the strike was exceptional -- it had the hand of a well-struck 43-P!

Walkerguy21D

Good question and a good observation.....I think if there were a special strike designation for the series, there would then be a registry entry, and a price guide category with higher listed values. This coin would have qualified, garnered more competition by those who 'needed it' and would have brought more money.
I also agree with the others, that this coin has a great strike for the issue but otherwise looks a little lacking in eye appeal for a 65. But there are a lot of blazing 41S walkers in the world, but very few in any condition with this strike.

leothelyon

Yes, there are more ways to collect coins than by the dates. The strike rules in this case and it's very likely, they're extremely difficult to come by. So it's reasonable to think that some qualities will need to be sacrificed when settling for a coin of this nature. An EDS struck example would be moving towards perfection if the grade/condition was ever found flawless or the luster was outstanding. Usually, most EDs coins end up on the bottom of the hopper since they're the first to come off of fresh working dies. So the survival rate for an unscathed example would be quite rare. Whoever bid up that coin, has a very discerning eye for detail and the wait for something like this to surface is usually a long one.


Leo

Tdec1000

There needs to be a FH designation for Walkers...... Full Head/Hand would be a good one IMHO.

bushmaster8

Yes, I did notice that it didn't seem to have the usual S-mint luster, but still...

LindeDad

I think two things held it back the timing of the auction number one.
Many are getting ready for the big show later in the week.
And second the images just may not be doing the coin justice.
And a final thought is that the Walker series as a whole seem to be selling below past levels IMO.

crypto79

Most walkers are legitimately scarce esp the earlier dates and esp in UNC where a strike designation would kick in. There is no need to manufacture elitism or rarity like Franklins. A 21s in UNC speaks for its self unlike the millions of UNC franklins that collector try to differentiae apart to make their collections special. Besides collectors have been seeking out well struck coins for a long time before the FSB,FBL, FH nonsense

golfer72

That is a great coin! Who needs the TPG's to have another designation like FBL, FSB bla bla bla. Cant we see the coins for ourselves? We need someone else to tell us it has a full hand? I collect Walkers but only with full strikes. Guess how many S mints I have?

RWB

The SF Mint normally had only one press striking half dollars from about mid-1940 to 1944. All the others were used for subsidiary silver, minor coins, and foreign coin orders.

The fullness of strike is not directly related to the age of a die. Old dies can still have excellent detail – they might have been withdrawn for damage, excess metal flow in the fields, etc. The most important factors are striking pressure and planchet hardness. If the planchets are too hard, it won’t matter how much pressure is used, the coins will lack high point detail. Given the large number of poorly detailed SF coins, it is more likely that improper annealing – due to exceeding the furnace’s capacity – is the primary cause of “weak strikes’ on half dollars of this era. (A similar situation was common at the New Orleans Mint during peak Morgan dollar production.)

WoodenJefferson

Walker collectors are a "fickle" bunch...hard to out guess them with certain examples. I speak from experience.

BillJones

As a dealer I used to get higher than normal prices for certified 1941-S Walkers with stronger than average strikes and good eye appeal. I'd go to the shows on buying trips that buy as many as I could find.

Poorly struck coins don't usually get into MS-64 or better holders. That puts a premium on them from the get-go.

golfer72

<< <i>As a dealer I used to get higher than normal prices for certified 1941-S Walkers with stronger than average strikes and good eye appeal. I'd go to the shows on buying trips that buy as many as I could find.

Poorly struck coins don't usually get into MS-64 or better holders. That puts a premium on them from the get-go. >>

Not true! I have seen oodles of poorly struck Walkers in 64,65,66 holders. PCGS,NGC etc

mumu

Picture looks overlit, even moreso than usual for teletrade. I bet someone got a great coin.

BillJones

<< <i>

<< <i>As a dealer I used to get higher than normal prices for certified 1941-S Walkers with stronger than average strikes and good eye appeal. I'd go to the shows on buying trips that buy as many as I could find.

Poorly struck coins don't usually get into MS-64 or better holders. That puts a premium on them from the get-go. >>

Not true! I have seen oodles of poorly struck Walkers in 64,65,66 holders. PCGS,NGC etc >>



Well maybe I didn't bother to look at those coins. When you are running boxes and and looking at thousands of coins in a day, the bad stuff just tends to slide by without notice. I just never looked at the poorly struck stuff, unless it was a rare date, you had to buy it that way.

golfer72

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>As a dealer I used to get higher than normal prices for certified 1941-S Walkers with stronger than average strikes and good eye appeal. I'd go to the shows on buying trips that buy as many as I could find.

Poorly struck coins don't usually get into MS-64 or better holders. That puts a premium on them from the get-go. >>

Not true! I have seen oodles of poorly struck Walkers in 64,65,66 holders. PCGS,NGC etc >>



Well maybe I didn't bother to look at those coins. When you are running boxes and and looking at thousands of coins in a day, the bad stuff just tends to slide by without notice. I just never looked at the poorly struck stuff, unless it was a rare date, you had to buy it that way. >>

I hear ya!

bushmaster8

Wow! Great info! Thanks! :




<< <i>The SF Mint normally had only one press striking half dollars from about mid-1940 to 1944. All the others were used for subsidiary silver, minor coins, and foreign coin orders.

The fullness of strike is not directly related to the age of a die. Old dies can still have excellent detail – they might have been withdrawn for damage, excess metal flow in the fields, etc. The most important factors are striking pressure and planchet hardness. If the planchets are too hard, it won’t matter how much pressure is used, the coins will lack high point detail. Given the large number of poorly detailed SF coins, it is more likely that improper annealing – due to exceeding the furnace’s capacity – is the primary cause of “weak strikes’ on half dollars of this era. (A similar situation was common at the New Orleans Mint during peak Morgan dollar production.) >>

Walkerguy21D

Interesting, but I would like to know where the information comes from.....I've never heard of planchet hardness on a 90% silver coin being the cause of a strike problem. Now a nickel coin is another matter of course. Not saying it isn't an issue with walkers, but I'd just like to have more information on it.
Reading Bruce Fox's book, he cites die pressure and die use as the biggest issues, with data showing the SF mint generally coining many more coins per die than than Philly or Denver mints (pg. 26, and the table on pg 27).

RWB

RE: Interesting, but I would like to know where the information comes from.....

The information on planchet hardness comes from a set if engineering reports in an investigation of the New Orleans Mint in 1900. The problem was persistently poor die life at New Orleans and complaints by the Superintendent that Philadelphia was sending them bad dies.

An engineer from Philadelphia was sent to NO for several months and he examined everything they did. The finding was that NO was not properly softening planchets. This, in turn, was caused by pressure from Mint HQ to produce more dollars than the mint’s annealing furnace could handle – too many planchets not being heated for a long enough time. When the engineer slowed down the annealing process to the correct time and temperature, the die problem vanished. The problem returned when the engineer left and HQ got back to demanding increased production.

The 1941 info is from operating reports of the SF Mint, and multiple documents discussing production problems, planning and press usage. The other mints generally had only one press on half-dollars, also. But only SF had large foreign coin orders but without enough annealing capacity. All three mints worked 24/7 most of the time from 1940-1945.

Mr. Fox was quoting “common knowledge” that had not actually been validated. Striking pressure is certainly the #1 suspect for poorly defined coins, but the consistency of poor quality halves in the 1940s – after thousands of die changes and press adjustments – suggests a more systemic problem.

Walkerguy21D

Thanks RWB - that is a very good explanation, and certainly makes sense.

PawPaul

.......I had never seen a full thumb '41-S Walker before !

bushmaster8

I wonder if the annealing furnace situation could also account for the particular luster characteristics of S-mint coins from the 1940's and 1950's...