Absolute 'newbie' needing advice on St. Gaudens $20 coin...

mintcollector

Hello,

If any of you happen to visit the currency collecting forums (where I am somewhat of a 'newbie' also), I post a lot over there. My real name is Shawn, and I do like both coins and currency. I am used to collecting only NGC and PCGS certified coins and up until now, I have only ever owned one Gold Coin (The Gold Buffalo Bullion coin in PCGS 69).

I really need some help, though. One of my collecting goals this year is to add a $20 St. Gaudens certified gold coin (any common year) in grade MS 63 or above and I do have some questions if anyone is kind enough to help.

First, is now really a good time to buy this kind of gold coin with gold prices being what they are? I plan to hold the coin for awhile (meaning many years) and am buying BOTH because I am fascinated with this issue and because of investment reasons.

Second, what should I look for when buying a CERTIFIED gold coin of this nature? Do gold coins tone? I personally do NOT like any kind of 'toned' coins, and when I buy Mercury Dimes, I avoid any kind of toning altogether (personal preference). Should I buy a CEC certified coin???

Lastly, any dealers you could recommend or should I stick with eBay? Hopw much should I expect to pay for a common date coin of this nature aned what are the common dates (I think 1922 or 1924 comes to mind, correct?). If anyone can help me, I would appreciate and I am sorry if this is in the wrong forum. I wasn't surre if this belonged in the Bullion Forum or if that is only for American Gold and Silver Eagles, etc.

Thank you for your help in advance. Any questions for me, please feel free to ask!

Sincerely,

mintcollector

edix2001

Gold coins generally don't tone.

kranky

Well, it's impossible to know whether this is a good time or a bad time to buy something. But if you want one, plan to hold it long-term, and will enjoy owning it, then buy one.

Gold coins don't really tone, but some do have what is called "copper spots" due to an imperfect mixing of the metals. Some people find them unappealing. It's easy enough to avoid them - don't buy gold coins with reddish spots.

In your position I'd recommend buying a CAC-stickered coin.

roadrunner

Even with gold near all time highs the price of 63-64 saints are hundreds of dollars below their Dec 2009 peaks. So they are decent values and lagging the price of gold. If it were me I would ONLY buy a CAC PCGS or NGC specimen (but preferably PCGS). There is basically no premium for a 63 CAC and probably less than 5% on a 64 CAC. But you are nearly assured of getting an all there, strong quality coin. Much of which currently circulates out there in the market is low end stuff. Gold coins generally don't tone but one can sometimes find them with a light pinkish or greenish hint to them. Very original coins often coming with a blazing orange/reddish toning that is very desireable. I would probably stay away from overly bright yellow coins that were obviously dipped...even if CAC'd. Also try to avoid coins that are spotted, especially dark or blackish streaks or whitish films. Most slabbed 63-64 saints come gleaming yellow. You should be able to buy a MS63 saint for around $1625-$1650. If you find someone on the BST unloading one you can probably get it for $1600. Most gold wholesalers would be paying around $1575 or so. A MS64 would cost another $125 or so. If it were me I'd try to find the best looking CAC 64 I could for the money. But a solid 63 CAC is a good value buy as it costs little more than a 61 or 62. CAC generally ignores copper spotting in its certification and is looking for choice original surfaces. So you will find copper spots on CAC coins, and that doesn't bother most people who are buying CAC'd coins. The odd thing is that if the coin is not CAC'd, those same spots are an automatic 5% deduction from a regular PCGS or NGC coin. Don't ask me why.

A CAC 64 brings about a 5% premium so expect to pay another $50-$75 for one of those. But if you find a real killer looking CAC 64 I wouldn't balk at paying a $100 premium. Imo 64's have the most room for being promoted. They were run to $2100-2200 last year and currently sit at around $1775. 63 CACs bring no real premium as investors typically start looking to buy at the 64 level. And the quality of 61-63 saints has been somewhat steady over the years with most of the gradeflation occuring in the 64's to 67's grades. But as gold heads higher in price the 64's might also fall prey to bullion and lose most of the current premium over a 63.

You'll know a common date coin by the price. In 63 or even 64 grade most semi-scarce saints have become common dates. That trend will continue. The quality and look of the coin is more important than the date. I'd rather have a killer looking 1924 than a scarcer 1922 that is all beat up looking (and 22's tend to come that way). You'll find some real nice lookers in the 1924, 25, 26, 27, and 28. While some of the scarcer dates come at no additional premium to those Philadelphia mint coins, they also tend to be a little less eye appealing. The 1908 no motto's are very common too and unless you are good at evauluating their odd striking characteristics, I would probably stay with the better struck 1920's dates. I wouldn't bother with eBay. Heritage coin offers weekly gold internet auctions and they rountinely put up CAC 63 and 64 Saints. They bring slightly more than wholesale prices but probably less than what your local dealer, or eBay would cost you. There are coin dealers all over the US selling MS63 saints to Heritage, Rarcoa, CNI, etc. at under $1600. It shouldn't be that hard to find one of those guys local to you that would prefer to keep some of that spread in his pocket.

Generic slabbed 63-64 saints are very liquid and easily sell over the phone for around 95% of current retail prices. So the downside on these is more related to the price of gold than the risk of buying an overgraded coin and being buried. Few, if any other parts of the US coin market trade so easily at 95% of retail in a sight-unseen manner.

roadrunner

RedHerring

Here's an example of what roadrunner is talking about (yes, I know this isn't BST).

I'd sell this PCGS/CAC MS64 Saint for $1750 delivered.

roadrunner

While I don't particularly love the quality of that 64 (CAC did) at $1750 it would be slightly below the buy prices of some of the major wholesalers. So not a bad deal at all. Overall I'd call it acceptable. And from if I'm not mistaken, a better variety for this hoard date.

roadrunner

Lehigh96

It is true that gold coins don't usually develop significant toning. This is about the most extreme I have ever found.



The color of the reverse is more typical of what you will find.

roadrunner

Neat looking saint Lehigh96. I like it. Never seen pink and yellow stripes like that before. I recall bidding on some raw Saints once in a Stacks auction (only black and white photos) and I put some hefty bids in because they said they were very colorfully toned in pinks, yellows, and greens. When I received the coins no matter how I turned them or varied the lighting I couldn't make out anything that resembled "color." I told them I wanted to return them and they agreed.

For edification, that black obverse toning at 3:00 would typically cause a price deduction on most any other saint. Certainly this particular coin has other strong points to neutralize the negatives. I've never seen a Saint more colorfully toned.

roadrunner

mintcollector

Thank you for all the help. At this time, though, I would be a 'fool' to buy something without doing a bit of my own research as well. I thank you all for your info on this topic though, and will keep you informed as to what I decide.

Sincerely,

mintcollector

jmski52

I was going to let you know that roadrunner is the guy you need to talk to, but I see that he's already been all over your question!

henson4

The Saint Gaudens is open of the most beautiful. Remember to buy them in either PCGS/NGC holders and never raw

mintcollector

Just out of curiosity; what is the price difference between a 64 and a 65? Am I talking a 'huge sum,' or just a couple hundred? I thank everyone for their advice, as it seems I have a LOT of research to do before buying. This is one purchase I don't want to make a mistake on!

Sincerely,

mintcollector

BillJones

1. It's hard to say what the price of gold might do. If the Federal government increases the money supply by huge amounts, or if the price of oil continues to go up, inflation will result and people will probably continue to push up the price of gold. That happened circa 1980 when the gold price reached $855 an ounce. Then it fell WAY down. You pay your money and you take your chance.

2. ALWAYS by certified gold and don't buy gold that is in "fly-by-night" slab companies. If it it were my money I'd stick with PCGS and NGC.

As to the toning question, gold is not a chemically reactive metal, but the copper alloy that makes it hard enough for use in circulation is. Copper toning can be ugly with light to dark brown or dark blue spots, but it can be very beautiful. Some gold coins take on a warm coppery glow that some collectors find to be really attractive. I've seen very few St. Gaudens $20 gold coins that had this type of toning, but here is an example of it on a McKinley commemorative gold dollar.



3. I can't name any Internet dealers, but I would advise you not to hang your hat on eBay. EBay has not done a good job of keeping counterfeit coins off of their site, including counterfeit coins in fake PCGS holders. I've not seen any fake St. Gaudens $20 gold coins in PCGS holder, but that does not mean that they don't exist.

I'd look to some of the names that advertise here. And yes the CAC sticker might help you find the right coin.

GritsMan

Great question and even better answer, Roadrunner! I learned a lot from this, and would also be interested in your opinions/thoughts on 65s. Heck, I might just go buy one, too.

Thanks!

mintcollector

**BUMP**

Just in case someone has any idea about the going rate of a 65? I have been checking as well, and am scouring both eBay and Heritage end auction listings to find value information.

Thanks again to everyone for your help!

roadrunner

Generic quality 65's are currently going for about $2000. But note that CAC 65's are probably worth $2400, a 20% premium. And the reason for that is because of the low quality of so many 65's in holders. CAC probably only certs about 10-20% of all 65's submitted. So in many respects they don't look much different than generic 66's. There is obviously a strong demand for CAC 65's or this premium wouldn't exist. The supply of them is still very small at 3300 total certified to date. There are anywhere from 100,000-200,000 total generic MS65's graded depending on how many of those are just resubmissions. So the risk of paying $2000 for a low end MS65 is that someday it could be considered a MS64+ and fetch a price inbetween 64-65 money. Right now the gap is only around $300 or so. There are about 2X as many 65's graded as 64's. But over the past 5 yrs the % of 65's was growing much faster than the 64's due to grading looseness.

A lot of different factors at play between 64's to 65. Obviously the 64's offer less confusion. But on a promotion basis, the 65's might offer more potential in the shorter term. The CAC's having such small numbers still makes them susceptable to price squeezes should someone decide to promote them. And obviously solid 65's not yet CAC'd are a good value since you are getting a $2400 coin for $2000, assuming you can make that call or have a trusted dealer who can. There are a lot of 64 and 64+ saints sitting in 65 holders. Those you have to avoid. If your trusted dealer is selling you a $2000 saint that seems of CAC quality you'd have to wonder why he didn't consider spending $30-$50 to make $250.

roadrunner

GritsMan

More good advice, RR. Thank you!

mintcollector

Just wanted to say thank you for everyone who helped me on this. Judging by the price differences from a 64 to a 65, I would probably try to get a 65 CAC (or 'plus') coin. I thank you all for help and was very pleased at the time a lot of you more experienced collectors spent with a 'newbie' like me...

Sincerely,

mintcollector

MikeInFL

Others have answered your questions better than I could. My advice is simple: If you can afford it, I would look to get a 65 CAC coin. It will look better, and the magic 65 grade (i.e. gem) will garner a premium to collectors too. If you can find a CAC coin without the sticker, so much the better. That won't be easy for someone without a good deal of experience.