I say no refund because a PSA 8 Jordan is a NM-MT Jordan and that is what you bought! >>
You do need to do more education on the fact that PSA has made mistakes in the past and have bought back cards thet were sent in for a review and found to be overgraded. So it is not that simple to say just because it is in a PSA 8 slab it is a PSA 8 quality card.
PSA is not perfect. If there is an issue or flaw/defect on the back of the card AND the seller did not at least scan the back of the card to reveal such to the potential buyer, the seller ought to refund the buyer if that defect is brought to his/her attention.
What seems very odd to me is that the buyer is not telling you what is wrong with the card. That does not seem to make sense. Most buyers who want to to return an item are very specific when pointing out the reason why they are returning the item, at least in my experience.
Bobby, do you have the card in your possession? I don't quite understand what you mean when you say that you don't know what the back of the card looks like.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Agreed Steve, I generally include a scan of the back, I was just making the point that since he didn't scan the back for the sale he very well might not have known what the back looked like. Happy New Years to you as well.
This is a tradable card and is one of the few cards in the sports card market that is meant to act like currency.
If a full refund is truly needed then what is the point of getting these cards graded.
I say no refund because a PSA 8 Jordan is a NM-MT Jordan and that is what you bought! >>
Yes it is an 1986 Fleer Jordan All cards are tradeable yet none are meant to act like currency. They are meant to act like basketball cards The point is to have a 3rd party give their OPINION on the card. That does not mean that the 3rd party grader is 100% correct or the final arbiter of what the customer wants. One PSA 8 is not the same as another and while that is what you bought the cards are different.
Well, since this hasn't gone anywhere, let me ask the REAL question...
Bobby, why do you claim to have paid $560 from Mile High (this card sold in Mile High in June, 2010 for $827.20) for a card that you would flip for $575? What is the real story?
Sold by Mile High 6/10/10 ($827.20):
Card Bobby offered claiming to have bought from Mile High for $560:
Well, since this hasn't gone anywhere, let me ask the REAL question...
Bobby, why do you claim to have paid $560 from Mile High (this card sold in Mile High in June, 2010 for $827.20) for a card that you would flip for $575? What is the real story?
Indeed, there seems to be a lot more to this story than we've been told so far..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Why is it that there are a few that present a story and the facts don't tend to add up?
I recall one that had a 1988 Fleer Basketball wax pack break with an extra card (just so happens to be a Jordan out of sequence), another that was offering to sell cards that he did not own (but had access to even though they were actually available on eBay and he was trying to make profit on margin), selling counterfeits/reprints, to posting pay stubs. Don't these people think that there isn't someone that will see through it or research it?
Perhaps Bobby has a reasonable answer, but I don't see it.
Hey - like I have told others, I don't have to gouge - if I can make enough to buy me a lunch I am happy. I paid $10 over what All Star Cards pays for the card, so I figured $550 was the WHOLESALE price of the card. I didn't expect to make much on the flip, as VCP average is only $583, but I figured it would go fast because EVERYONE loves this card!
OK. I apologize to Bobby. It appears he did purchase the card from Memory Lane. In my haste, I failed to check ML and brain farted ML vs MH... Again, my apologies.
My original thinking was that you werent cosidering the buyers side of the story though. I still feel that way because according to you, you don't know what issue he has with the back of the card.
It is PSA 8, you get what you pay for. This is not a perfect card and you know it.
There are a lot of reasons a card makes it in an 8 holder.
This card was featured in a big auction as referenced much earlier and if it was good enough to be in that auction so be it!
A PSA 8 is not a perfect card, but if it has a defect that PSA missed and the seller did not scan or reveal that defect, the onus is on the seller to make it right, IMO. That's just common courtesy and the way a reputable person conducts business.
If the purchase was on ebay, though, it doesn't matter anyway, as the filing of a SNAD claim will require the seller to accept a return anyway.
I'm still wondering why the buyer wants to return the card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
With it being a Jordan Rookie, if sold this card once, you know you can sell this again (for more most likely). I would take the return. I would have them send it back with Signature Required and Insurance. When you pick it up, open tell the postal employee, you want to open in front of them for a "witness" If the card is damaged/swapped, etc in any way you have a witness.
But good Customer Service would prevail...
I just recently had someone claim a package I sent them "needed postage" (I shipped from the postal service directly). I didn't even hesitate to send them the money they paid.. I bet I get a buyer for life with that.
Cory ---------------------- Working on: Football 1973 Topps PSA 8+ (99.81%) 1976 Topps PSA 9+ (36.36%) 1977 Topps PSA 9+ (100%)
<< <i>I am interested in his concerns, but not trying to be smart, but isn't that why we even use PSA to begin with!?!?!?! To take the guesswork out of the stated condition of cards? >>
No. We use PSA to minimize the guesswork. We do not use PSA to eliminate the guesswork.
We really need to know what the defect or flaw in this card is in order to render a better opinion here...
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>It is a PSA 8 Jordan. You bought it, you own it. >>
And for whatever reason I dont like it. Could be centering, could be a soft corner, could be a spot on the back, could be whatever. As a seller I believe it is my job to make my buyer happy. If that means taking the card back, regardless of why, I will. I might not like it I might do it without a smile on my face, but I take it back.
What if Wal-Mart, insert any store, had the return policy that they do not accept returns? I think the tunes of some people on here would be slightly different
One of the primary reasons you get cards graded is becuase the vast majority of sales is done over internet commerce.
If you can not sell a PSA 8 Jordan Rookie without any concern we have problems.
A Jordan rookie is a liquid card. Someone said earlier this was not of any concern but they are simply mistaken. If a Jordan rookie that is graded PSA 8 can not sell freely over the internet just wait and see all of the transactions that fall apart.
This is one of the few cards you think you have sold and the deal is done. If this is a raw card over promised you have a beef but a PSA 8 Jordan is what you are getting and you must take it.
I suspect there is bad off centering on the back but I suspect even more the buyer found a better deal and said refund please!
Interesting. I don't deal with returns on any EBay auctions. To many scammers out there.
There are many scamming sellers out there, also. That's why ebay provides a SNAD return policy regardless of whether you "deal with returns."
Arex, the reason I said we need more info here is to legitimize the reason for wanting a return on the buyer's part. If it's simply a case of "buyer's remorse" or because the buyer bought an 8 thinking maybe he can bump it to a 9, well, I'd be less sympathetic to his argument than if there were truly a defect in the card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>One of the primary reasons you get cards graded is becuase the vast majority of sales is done over internet commerce.
If you can not sell a PSA 8 Jordan Rookie without any concern we have problems.
A Jordan rookie is a liquid card. Someone said earlier this was not of any concern but they are simply mistaken. If a Jordan rookie that is graded PSA 8 can not sell freely over the internet just wait and see all of the transactions that fall apart.
This is one of the few cards you think you have sold and the deal is done. If this is a raw card over promised you have a beef but a PSA 8 Jordan is what you are getting and you must take it.
I suspect there is bad off centering on the back but I suspect even more the buyer found a better deal and said refund please! >>
<< <i>Well, since this hasn't gone anywhere, let me ask the REAL question...
Bobby, why do you claim to have paid $560 from Mile High (this card sold in Mile High in June, 2010 for $827.20) for a card that you would flip for $575? What is the real story?
Indeed, there seems to be a lot more to this story than we've been told so far.. >>
Pulling up my chair on the grassy knoll, popcorn in hand.
Without any thought to the actual people involved, as I don't know much about them at all, this looks like a case where the auction buyer saw the card wasn't all that and flipped it quickly, only to find a buyer who also wasn't in love with the card.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>If you even need to ask this question vs immediately making someone happy speaks volumes about your character. >>
<< <i>Your attitude about customer satisfaction is repugnant and is third class! You would not be a good Costco or Nordstroms employee. For whatever reason(s), if a customer of mine is not happy, I am not happy...maybe this is why my eBay feedback is 100% positive with 5.0s across the board, after thousands of transactions. >>
Funny, With your flippant response to a legitimate question, Count me as one who will never purchase anything from you as long as I live. There is nothing third class and repugnant about this question, look at the varying degree of responses by the board members on this issue, and you will clearly see that the question warrants being addressed.
<< <i>Steve, I can honestly say that I rarely look at the backs of my cards so I couldn't tell you if any of them have flaws off the top of my head. >>
+1, I rarely look at the back of my cards, and only add a back scan when requested via email on any sale I conduct.
As for the matter itself, I can understand where Bobby has a sense of concern. I vaguely remember seeing the post on the BST boards where a newbie was looking to purchase a Jordan RC. I can only assume, as I saw Bobby respond to the thread, that he sold the card to this new board member. There are plenty of threads on these boards, where fellow board members have gotten scammed, or are alerting the boards to a scam, coupled with the fact that Bobby apparently has gotten scammed on a return in the past, its only natural for Bobby to have major reservation about accepting a return.
With all that being said, I personally would work with the buyer to understand what the flaw is with the card, and assuming that there is a legitimate claim, I would return the money, upon succesful return of the card, as the buyers expense. I can see a case being made for not accepting the return as well, and it would have no affect on whether I would purchase from Bobby in the future. I have made multiple transactions with Bobby, and all have gone very smoothly.
<< <i>thats pretty freakin hilarious. And I dont buy it for one second. >>
Well...the proof is in the freaking pudding!! I put a link to how much I paid. I sold the card for $575. It cost me $6 and some change to ship. I made $8 and some change on the card....what else do you want, a blood sample!!! ROTFLMAO!!!! Carry on.....
The point is, I did a board member a favor on a VERY liquid card for pratically a wholesale price and he wants to return it. I can honestly say I have NEVER returned a PSA graded card (even cards I thought were overgraded). And I haven't always seen a scan of the back. This whole ordeal makes me not want to do anymore favors.....
<<Funny, With your flippant response to a legitimate question, Count me as one who will never purchase anything from you as long as I live. There is nothing third class and repugnant about this question, look at the varying degree of responses by the board members on this issue, and you will clearly see that the question warrants being addressed.>>
Matt, this is the fourth time Bobby has asked the same question, twice with regards to PSA graded cards, and once with regards to raw cards:
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether you or I or anyone else would put Jessep on the stand. The only thing that matters, is what Bobby does. Perhaps there is no right or wrong answer in this situation, but the OP should decide for himself based on his own feelings, not what others think.
Comments
<< <i>all this over $8?
no need to start a thread for it. >>
It has been awhile since we had a $4 shipping charge thread, take it and run with it. It is 2011 and it is due!
My Registry Sets
This is a PSA 8 Jordan 1986 Fleer.
This is a tradable card and is one of the few cards in the sports card market that is meant to act like currency.
If a full refund is truly needed then what is the point of getting these cards graded.
I say no refund because a PSA 8 Jordan is a NM-MT Jordan and that is what you bought!
<< <i>
I say no refund because a PSA 8 Jordan is a NM-MT Jordan and that is what you bought! >>
You do need to do more education on the fact that PSA has made mistakes in the past and have bought back cards thet were sent in for a review and found to be overgraded. So it is not that simple to say just because it is in a PSA 8 slab it is a PSA 8 quality card.
What seems very odd to me is that the buyer is not telling you what is wrong with the card. That does not seem to make sense. Most buyers who want to to return an item are very specific when pointing out the reason why they are returning the item, at least in my experience.
Bobby, do you have the card in your possession? I don't quite understand what you mean when you say that you don't know what the back of the card looks like.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Giving a refund on TPG's means the buyer knows more than the professional trained grader. >>
No it doesnt. It means the customer, for whatever reason, was not happy with the card
<< <i>
<< <i>Giving a refund on TPG's means the buyer knows more than the professional trained grader. >>
. It means the customer, for whatever reason, was not happy with the card >>
And shows weakness in the TPG.
Even when you are selling it? For 600.00?
I have no idea what many of my cards backs look like either, but when I go to sell them I sure as heck do.
Happy New Year btw
Steve
My Registry Sets
<< <i>Let me say one thing.
This is a PSA 8 Jordan 1986 Fleer.
This is a tradable card and is one of the few cards in the sports card market that is meant to act like currency.
If a full refund is truly needed then what is the point of getting these cards graded.
I say no refund because a PSA 8 Jordan is a NM-MT Jordan and that is what you bought! >>
Yes it is an 1986 Fleer Jordan
All cards are tradeable yet none are meant to act like currency. They are meant to act like basketball cards
The point is to have a 3rd party give their OPINION on the card. That does not mean that the 3rd party grader is 100% correct or the final arbiter of what the customer wants.
One PSA 8 is not the same as another and while that is what you bought the cards are different.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Giving a refund on TPG's means the buyer knows more than the professional trained grader. >>
. It means the customer, for whatever reason, was not happy with the card >>
And shows weakness in the TPG. >>
How is that?
Bobby, why do you claim to have paid $560 from Mile High (this card sold in Mile High in June, 2010 for $827.20) for a card that you would flip for $575? What is the real story?
Sold by Mile High 6/10/10 ($827.20):
Card Bobby offered claiming to have bought from Mile High for $560:
<< <i>Why are we talking about how liquid a card is? That has nothing to do with this. >>
Bobby, why do you claim to have paid $560 from Mile High (this card sold in Mile High in June, 2010 for $827.20) for a card that you would flip for $575? What is the real story?
Indeed, there seems to be a lot more to this story than we've been told so far..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I couldn't find a listing for it in the past year on the BST board.
<< <i>BRB, gonna go pop some popcorn. >>
...melting butter
MULLINS5,1966CUDA,nam812,nightcrawler,OAKESY25,PowderedH2O,relaxed,RonBurgundy,samsgirl214,shagrotn77,swartz1,slantycouch,Statman,Wabittwax
I figured as much.
Steve
I recall one that had a 1988 Fleer Basketball wax pack break with an extra card (just so happens to be a Jordan out of sequence), another that was offering to sell cards that he did not own (but had access to even though they were actually available on eBay and he was trying to make profit on margin), selling counterfeits/reprints, to posting pay stubs. Don't these people think that there isn't someone that will see through it or research it?
Perhaps Bobby has a reasonable answer, but I don't see it.
The REAL card I won!
Hey - like I have told others, I don't have to gouge - if I can make enough to buy me a lunch I am happy. I paid $10 over what All Star Cards pays for the card, so I figured $550 was the WHOLESALE price of the card. I didn't expect to make much on the flip, as VCP average is only $583, but I figured it would go fast because EVERYONE loves this card!
It is PSA 8, you get what you pay for. This is not a perfect card and you know it.
There are a lot of reasons a card makes it in an 8 holder.
This card was featured in a big auction as referenced much earlier and if it was good enough to be in that auction so be it!
<< <i>As I have said from day one.
It is PSA 8, you get what you pay for. This is not a perfect card and you know it.
There are a lot of reasons a card makes it in an 8 holder.
This card was featured in a big auction as referenced much earlier and if it was good enough to be in that auction so be it! >>
Will you please tell me what in the wide wide world of sports you mean by this tripe and how it relates to the topic at hand?
My original thinking was that you werent cosidering the buyers side of the story though. I still feel that way because according to you, you don't know what issue he has with the back of the card.
It is PSA 8, you get what you pay for. This is not a perfect card and you know it.
There are a lot of reasons a card makes it in an 8 holder.
This card was featured in a big auction as referenced much earlier and if it was good enough to be in that auction so be it!
A PSA 8 is not a perfect card, but if it has a defect that PSA missed and the seller did not scan or reveal that defect, the onus is on the seller to make it right, IMO. That's just common courtesy and the way a reputable person conducts business.
If the purchase was on ebay, though, it doesn't matter anyway, as the filing of a SNAD claim will require the seller to accept a return anyway.
I'm still wondering why the buyer wants to return the card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
With it being a Jordan Rookie, if sold this card once, you know you can sell this again (for more most likely). I would take the return. I would have them send it back with Signature Required and Insurance. When you pick it up, open tell the postal employee, you want to open in front of them for a "witness" If the card is damaged/swapped, etc in any way you have a witness.
But good Customer Service would prevail...
I just recently had someone claim a package I sent them "needed postage" (I shipped from the postal service directly). I didn't even hesitate to send them the money they paid.. I bet I get a buyer for life with that.
----------------------
Working on:
Football
1973 Topps PSA 8+ (99.81%)
1976 Topps PSA 9+ (36.36%)
1977 Topps PSA 9+ (100%)
Baseball
1938 Goudey (56.25%)
1951 Topps Redbacks PSA 8 (100%)
1952 Bowman PSA 7+ (63.10%)
1953 Topps PSA 5+ (91.24%)
1973 Topps PSA 8+ (70.76%)
1985 Fleer PSA 10 (54.85%)
<< <i>I am interested in his concerns, but not trying to be smart, but isn't that why we even use PSA to begin with!?!?!?! To take the guesswork out of the stated condition of cards?
>>
No. We use PSA to minimize the guesswork. We do not use PSA to eliminate the guesswork.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>It is a PSA 8 Jordan. You bought it, you own it. >>
And for whatever reason I dont like it. Could be centering, could be a soft corner, could be a spot on the back, could be whatever. As a seller I believe it is my job to make my buyer happy. If that means taking the card back, regardless of why, I will. I might not like it I might do it without a smile on my face, but I take it back.
What if Wal-Mart, insert any store, had the return policy that they do not accept returns? I think the tunes of some people on here would be slightly different
<< <i>We really need to know what the defect or flaw in this card is in order to render a better opinion here... >>
Why? Not being smart, but what difference does it make?
If you can not sell a PSA 8 Jordan Rookie without any concern we have problems.
A Jordan rookie is a liquid card. Someone said earlier this was not of any concern but they are simply mistaken. If a Jordan rookie that is graded PSA 8 can not sell freely over the internet just wait and see all of the transactions that fall apart.
This is one of the few cards you think you have sold and the deal is done. If this is a raw card over promised you have a beef but a PSA 8 Jordan is what you are getting and you must take it.
I suspect there is bad off centering on the back but I suspect even more the buyer found a better deal and said refund please!
There are many scamming sellers out there, also. That's why ebay provides a SNAD return policy regardless of whether you "deal with returns."
Arex, the reason I said we need more info here is to legitimize the reason for wanting a return on the buyer's part. If it's simply a case of "buyer's remorse" or because the buyer bought an 8 thinking maybe he can bump it to a 9, well, I'd be less sympathetic to his argument than if there were truly a defect in the card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>One of the primary reasons you get cards graded is becuase the vast majority of sales is done over internet commerce.
If you can not sell a PSA 8 Jordan Rookie without any concern we have problems.
A Jordan rookie is a liquid card. Someone said earlier this was not of any concern but they are simply mistaken. If a Jordan rookie that is graded PSA 8 can not sell freely over the internet just wait and see all of the transactions that fall apart.
This is one of the few cards you think you have sold and the deal is done. If this is a raw card over promised you have a beef but a PSA 8 Jordan is what you are getting and you must take it.
I suspect there is bad off centering on the back but I suspect even more the buyer found a better deal and said refund please! >>
Ill have to agree to disagree with you
<< <i>Well, since this hasn't gone anywhere, let me ask the REAL question...
Bobby, why do you claim to have paid $560 from Mile High (this card sold in Mile High in June, 2010 for $827.20) for a card that you would flip for $575? What is the real story?
Indeed, there seems to be a lot more to this story than we've been told so far.. >>
Pulling up my chair on the grassy knoll, popcorn in hand.
Without any thought to the actual people involved, as I don't know much about them at all, this looks like a case where the auction buyer saw the card wasn't all that and flipped it quickly, only to find a buyer who also wasn't in love with the card.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>If you even need to ask this question vs immediately making someone happy speaks volumes about your character. >>
<< <i>Your attitude about customer satisfaction is repugnant and is third class! You would not be a good Costco or Nordstroms employee. For whatever reason(s), if a customer of mine is not happy, I am not happy...maybe this is why my eBay feedback is 100% positive with 5.0s across the board, after thousands of transactions. >>
Funny, With your flippant response to a legitimate question, Count me as one who will never purchase anything from you as long as I live. There is nothing third class and repugnant about this question, look at the varying degree of responses by the board members on this issue, and you will clearly see that the question warrants being addressed.
<< <i>Steve, I can honestly say that I rarely look at the backs of my cards so I couldn't tell you if any of them have flaws off the top of my head. >>
+1, I rarely look at the back of my cards, and only add a back scan when requested via email on any sale I conduct.
As for the matter itself, I can understand where Bobby has a sense of concern. I vaguely remember seeing the post on the BST boards where a newbie was looking to purchase a Jordan RC. I can only assume, as I saw Bobby respond to the thread, that he sold the card to this new board member. There are plenty of threads on these boards, where fellow board members have gotten scammed, or are alerting the boards to a scam, coupled with the fact that Bobby apparently has gotten scammed on a return in the past, its only natural for Bobby to have major reservation about accepting a return.
With all that being said, I personally would work with the buyer to understand what the flaw is with the card, and assuming that there is a legitimate claim, I would return the money, upon succesful return of the card, as the buyers expense. I can see a case being made for not accepting the return as well, and it would have no affect on whether I would purchase from Bobby in the future. I have made multiple transactions with Bobby, and all have gone very smoothly.
thats pretty freakin hilarious. And I dont buy it for one second.
<< <i>thats pretty freakin hilarious. And I dont buy it for one second. >>
Well...the proof is in the freaking pudding!! I put a link to how much I paid. I sold the card for $575. It cost me $6 and some change to ship. I made $8 and some change on the card....what else do you want, a blood sample!!! ROTFLMAO!!!! Carry on.....
The point is, I did a board member a favor on a VERY liquid card for pratically a wholesale price and he wants to return it. I can honestly say I have NEVER returned a PSA graded card (even cards I thought were overgraded). And I haven't always seen a scan of the back. This whole ordeal makes me not want to do anymore favors.....
Matt, this is the fourth time Bobby has asked the same question, twice with regards to PSA graded cards, and once with regards to raw cards:
refund for psa card 1
Here we go again
Do raw card sellers guarantee the card will grade?
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether you or I or anyone else would put Jessep on the stand. The only thing that matters, is what Bobby does. Perhaps there is no right or wrong answer in this situation, but the OP should decide for himself based on his own feelings, not what others think.
MULLINS5,1966CUDA,nam812,nightcrawler,OAKESY25,PowderedH2O,relaxed,RonBurgundy,samsgirl214,shagrotn77,swartz1,slantycouch,Statman,Wabittwax