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At melt of $23.90 is there any numismatic value in common morgan/peace
2manycoins2fewfunds
Posts: 3,034 ✭✭✭
For common date non BU morgan and peace dollars is there much if any numismatic value left??
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2manycoins2fewfunds
Posts: 3,034 ✭✭✭
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Given their age and popularity, Yes.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
roadrunner
thay will at some time gain more value.
Happy New Year
Why tie the $ up when you can melt it for more than the numismatic value now...take that $ and buy yourself a MS65 Morgan, even a common one. Those will increase far more percentage wise in a shorther period of time.
<< <i>this happens every time the bullion prices shoot skyward------Numismatic value is passed by bullion value so the most common stuff dissappears and the fallout is that the stuff that remains gets less common and increases in Numismatic value. as far as the Morgan Dollar is concerned i view it as Poetic Justice since the coin was nothing more than a Political scam intended to get the ore out of the ground at the expense of the Citizenry while turning a profit for the Mine Owners. how ironic that the Mine Owners just happened to be the Politicians passing the Bill. >>
This is unfair on two levels re: Bland-Allison:
1) It discounts the populist rage that gave this broad-based support.
2) It discounts all the non-mine owning politicians who were very simply bought and paid for.
To the OPs question: strongly negatory
(edited to correct punctuation... again)
I believe that common MS63 to MS65 Morgans will continue to lose ground to the price of circs & the price of silver. If silver tripled from here, do you really think MS65's will fetch $400-450 (ie a tripling of current collector demand)? But I know XF Morgans will be worth $75 and will also essentially triple.
roadrunner
Here's my example:
Take an ungraded VF 1921 Morgan, now take a PCGS MS65 Morgan 1921 Morgan. Which one will increase in value sooner and for more percentage wise?
Maybe the VF one would simply because of the silver content, I see your point there, but looking at it numismatically, which I thought the question from the op was, I think the MS65 one will far outperform over holding it 20 years as I stated.
So in answer to your question, at current prices, no numismatic value is well surpassed (at least to Joe public). That said I can't imagine any coin collector wanting to put together a circulated date set (say VF or less) of the common coins at the prices they are now at.
<< <i>I believe that common MS63 to MS65 Morgans will continue to lose ground to the price of circs & the price of silver >>
I have been doing alot of trading for common date certified MS63 Morgans and Peace dollars. I think they will be on the move in the next two years.
I _LIKE old battered Morgan $'s.
Just the fact you can hold a one hundered year old+, big old silver coin your hand, is cool
This is why I'm trying to squirrel away a bag of 1,000 dated 1899 & earlier...
<< <i>For common date non BU morgan and peace dollars is there much if any numismatic value left?? >>
No, if they're currently being melted.
Yes, if they're not.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Maybe the VF one would simply because of the silver content, I see your point there, but looking at it numismatically, which I thought the question from the op was, I think the MS65 one will far outperform over holding it 20 years as I stated.
That's a big leap of faith. One can make a legitimate argument that MS65 Morgans are almost non-numismatic. That is, that there are so many of them that their huge supply dwarfs the total demand for them. Trying to find homes for even 10% of all the PCGS MS65 Morgans on short notice would clog the market and drive prices instantly down. But the demand for silver bullion worldwide is possibly a million times greater than for MS65 Morgans. The track record for MS65 Morgans is not good considering they were >$500 in 1986-1987, down to $300 by March 1990, and continued downward to $75 about 5-6 yrs. ago. They've since rebounded off that oversold bottom to the $125-$150 range....much the same way stocks have as the dollar has lost 34% of it's index value. The reason they continued downward all those years is that supply kept on increasing while demand was fairly steady. Not to harp on Morgans, I could probably make a similar argument for $20 BU saints almost being non-numismatic as well. Should the price of MS65 Morgans continue to rise, it will only force more remaining supplies of original bags and hoards to come to light to fill that void. I would think that there are enough of those still left in hiding to fill MS65 "collector/numismatic" demand for many years to come. Silver continues to be under supply/demand deficit as there are hundreds of millions of people around the world who want silver. The last 20 yr run for MS65 Morgans was pretty poor. How will the numismatic fundamentals improve over next 20 yrs.
In 20 yrs, if slabbing continues on its current way, there might >50% more MS65 Morgans available, and even less collectors/investors for them. Ideally, you want the pops growing slower than the demand or at least staying equal. Compare the price of MS65 Morgans to silver over the past 9 yrs to get your answer. The ratio has gone from around 20 down to around 4 to 5. And during that 8 yrs there was a numismatic bull market to boot.
roadrunner
From what I've seen there's still a small premium on them above junk 90% or bars and rounds.
If not for the price of silver rebounding sharply from fall of 2008, I think we would have seen MS65 Morgan prices collapse back to the $100 or lower range. But they rode on silver's coat tails to advance a small amount in 2010....while silver doubled. The rest of the numismatic coin market was flat in 2010. Right now, the only thing commom MS65 Morgans are responding to is the wind from silver bullion gains. I think common MS65 Morgans hit their cyclic peak decades ago when their pops were miniscule. Since that time the pops only continue to increase, faster than there are new collectors to absorb them. Fortunately for now, silver investors or even collectors looking for a silver component are considering MS65 Morgans. I would think the 63's and 64's would do better in the coming years because of their lower premium to melt. It's possible that silver prices could collapse as in 1980 but I'm not holding my breath as the supply/demand equation is radically different today. It's also possible that MS65 Morgans could sharply advance in price in 20 yrs (inflation adjusted) but it's a not a long term bet I'd want to make with my money.
roadrunner
<< <i>Guess I'm the contrarion<sp> of the group..
I _LIKE old battered Morgan $'s.
Just the fact you can hold a one hundered year old+, big old silver coin your hand, is cool
This is why I'm trying to squirrel away a bag of 1,000 dated 1899 & earlier... >>
I'm with you. I love the things. The clw54 hoard slowly increases over time.
I agree. Also, any sharp drop in silver bullion should be accompanied by a sharp rise in premiums on circ dollars.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Numismatic premium will catch up once we settle in at a steady silver price...
I agree. Also, any sharp drop in silver bullion should be accompanied by a sharp rise in premiums on circ dollars. >>
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A sharp drop in bullion prices may result in an increased numismatic premium but at what net price level??
Lets face it................it has been 30 years since common 1921 morgans/1922/23 peace dollars and worn morgans and sold for $23-$26
The coins would likely fall in value. I'm only suggesting that circ dollars may be a smarter investment than straight bullion because there's far less downside in circ dollars, and possibly more upside.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>... The track record for MS65 Morgans is not good considering they were >$500 in 1986-1987, down to $300 by March 1990, and continued downward to $75 about 5-6 yrs. ago. They've since rebounded off that oversold bottom to the $125-$150 range....much the same way stocks have as the dollar has lost 34% of it's index value. The reason they continued downward all those years is that supply kept on increasing while demand was fairly steady. Not to harp on Morgans, I could probably make a similar argument for $20 BU saints almost being non-numismatic as well. roadrunner >>
A disagreement of the price drop of MS65 Morgans to this degree. For over a year in 1986-87 grading standards were much tougher than now. And submissions were highly limited because of the artificial scarcity of all PCGS coins due to a restriction on the number of dealers authorized to submit anything and the number of coins they were allowed to submit. Grading "slots" were selling for $40-$50 per "slot" Dan Drykerman was bidding $800 for MS65 Morgan for a while. Quite a few (in particular"S" mint) Morgans graded then would qualify as MS67 now. LOL, some are still only 65s, but they are VERY lustrous. Consider the price of MS67's (650+-) now. And the best (except the ever more rare shot 68's) are widgets unless toned. BTW the same sort of limitations were placed on NGC submissions when it opened, albeit in a different manner.
WTF this has to do with bullion prices and circs I have no idea. Just the musings of an old man because the History Channel won't accept my calls.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>this happens every time the bullion prices shoot skyward------Numismatic value is passed by bullion value so the most common stuff dissappears and the fallout is that the stuff that remains gets less common and increases in Numismatic value. as far as the Morgan Dollar is concerned i view it as Poetic Justice since the coin was nothing more than a Political scam intended to get the ore out of the ground at the expense of the Citizenry while turning a profit for the Mine Owners. how ironic that the Mine Owners just happened to be the Politicians passing the Bill. >>
some things never change!
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
<< <i>Guess I'm the contrarion<sp> of the group..
I _LIKE old battered Morgan $'s.
Just the fact you can hold a one hundered year old+, big old silver coin your hand, is cool
This is why I'm trying to squirrel away a bag of 1,000 dated 1899 & earlier... >>
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe that common MS63 to MS65 Morgans will continue to lose ground to the price of circs & the price of silver >>
I have been doing alot of trading for common date certified MS63 Morgans and Peace dollars. I think they will be on the move in the next two years.
Hey, what is that fugly ANACS holder doing in there?
With common circulated Morgan and Peace dollars at nearly $24 melt, and the economy still in the tank, very few new collectors can afford to start meaningful sets or add to their existing sets. Many more collectors are probably selling their sets/hoards for whatever the market will bring, due to financial necessity.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I went through and kept all the most original eye appealing nicely struck stuff and all bust, seated and barber coins.
Also have 40 1968 mint sets each with the 40% silver half, est value $180. But can I get more selling the sets whole?
I know this all looks small change to many but none of it is valued above bullion.
One Peace $ 1921 I have is valued at $140 in G4. Bought years ago before learning it's gold toning was AT. What's it worth now? $23.50?
Leo
Edited to add, and I've heard silver may go as high as $50/oz
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
You guys are gonna roast me for bumping this thread.
< Saying a prayer that we will again discuss junk silver going for 25x face, $30 peace and morgan dollars.
Yup, here you go.......
You folks haven't checked in with John Love lately, have you.
Neither have I. Just guessing that it's been the same old same old in Cut Bank, Montana for the last 40 years and, if you wanted 10,000 circ dollars, I'd guess he'd likely need less than a month to fill.
Next time we hit $23.90 silver I'm getting into wolfram. That's right. Not rhodium. The spread there will swallow you whole.
The 21st Century will not be about precious or noble metals, but rare earths. Which is why the Chinese want North Korea locked up tight and are trying to subvert Australia.
Watch how the swine flu epidemic currently decimating herds in the Middle Kingdom affects trade balances.
Bacon may be a better short-term play than wolfram, but it's likely optimal to split your bets.
@ColonelJessup ....Bacon will always be more popular than wolfram (tungsten for those unfamiliar with the term)....though it does have some unique properties, it does not go well with eggs....
Cheers, RickO
to the Colonel's point, Democracy will always win in the short term, Totalitarianism will always win in the long term. thus, if we don't start thinking more than 5-10 years down the road we will ultimately lose to the Chinese who think in terms of centuries. this gets us to Cut Bank, Montana and the Silver Dollar hoard. if you are so situated that setting aside several million dollars doesn't affect you in any way you will always win. aside from that it is clear that cartwheels are a losing bet. we buy/sell circs at about a $2-$5 spread and since we just buy them all as Silver-on-Steroids we make a bit more on the BU's and better dates, but they are an overall loser unless you are so situated that you can just "sit" on them for however long it takes for the pendulum to swing.
BTW, I stand by my 2011 comment. to the retort:
This is unfair on two levels re: Bland-Allison:
1) It discounts the populist rage that gave this broad-based support.
2) It discounts all the non-mine owning politicians who were very simply bought and paid for.
I have never read where this classic con-job had support, the populace sort of detested the big Dollars and the common practice was to mint them and store them in bank vaults.
Wolfram is a hold
Various hog commodities are a trade
Soybeans have taken on a new geo-political importance.
But $300B per year in micro-chip exports needs wolfram.
Screw Eschew AG and AU.
Buy rare-earth mining companies in Australia.
Buy wolfram.
If you can't get wolfram, consider specialty ceramics materials. Steel's not the deal.
Go long hog bellies sooner than later.