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Need advice on potential eBay/Paypal chargeback (Updated 2/21/11)
Bayard1908
Posts: 4,181 ✭✭✭✭
I sold a coin for over $250 to an eBay buyer who paid with Paypal. I shipped with Signature Confirmation and full insurance. The transaction is eligible for Seller Protection.
The buyer received the coin. The buyer said he wants to return it because his favorite dealer said the coin wouldn't likely cross to PCGS. I agreed to accept the return.
While I was awaiting return of the coin, the buyer opened an item not as described case with eBay demanding a full refund. Since these cases are now potentially part of a seller's rating, I escalated what I thought was a frivolous case to a claim. eBay promptly found in my favor, since an unknown dealer's opinion that the coin probably wouldn't cross to PCGS did not constitute misdescription.
I was puzzled by the buyer's aggressive behavior. I have since learned that the buyer apparently shipped the coin to my PO Box without Signature Confirmation and without insurance. The buyer gave me a Delivery Confirmation tracking number that shows "delivery" on Christmas Eve, and I had not been to the post office since then.
I made a special trip to the post office today. I had three packages waiting for me, but nothing from this buyer.
The buyer has announced that he intends to appeal eBay's decision on the item not as described claim. If he does not prevail on the appeal, he intends to file a chargeback with his credit card company.
I've never had a chargeback before, and I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate to issue a refund for a phantom return. As a point of reference, I'm willing to take a negative feedback but would like to avoid or minimize any financial loss. I have a few questions and would appreciate whatever constructive advice the board can provide.
1. How likely is it that I will lose in the event of a chargeback?
2. If I lose the chargeback, will eBay refund my Final Value Fee?
3. If I lose the chargeback, will Paypal refund their commission or will they instead charge me an additional fee?
4. If I lose the chargeback, what is the chance that eBay or Paypal will eat the loss and make me whole?
Thank you for any help you can provide, especially if your knowledge is the result of bitter experience.
1/26/11 Update: Buyer has filed a chargeback, and I have filed a response with Paypal. While this is pending, Paypal has debited my account for the amount of money in dispute.
2/21/11 Update: The buyer left me negative feedback and all 1s on the DSRs. Paypal says they are disputing the chargeback with the credit card issuer. Yesterday Paypal charged me a $27.13 commission on the $925 sale, after previously having taken the $897.87 net from my account last month. I don't know why Paypal thinks they're entitled to a commission on the "sale" if I'm at risk of losing my merchandise and my money. Paypal has also charged me a $20 chargeback fee, which they claim the credit card issuer has charged them, and they're just passing it along. I'm still hoping this works out.
The buyer received the coin. The buyer said he wants to return it because his favorite dealer said the coin wouldn't likely cross to PCGS. I agreed to accept the return.
While I was awaiting return of the coin, the buyer opened an item not as described case with eBay demanding a full refund. Since these cases are now potentially part of a seller's rating, I escalated what I thought was a frivolous case to a claim. eBay promptly found in my favor, since an unknown dealer's opinion that the coin probably wouldn't cross to PCGS did not constitute misdescription.
I was puzzled by the buyer's aggressive behavior. I have since learned that the buyer apparently shipped the coin to my PO Box without Signature Confirmation and without insurance. The buyer gave me a Delivery Confirmation tracking number that shows "delivery" on Christmas Eve, and I had not been to the post office since then.
I made a special trip to the post office today. I had three packages waiting for me, but nothing from this buyer.
The buyer has announced that he intends to appeal eBay's decision on the item not as described claim. If he does not prevail on the appeal, he intends to file a chargeback with his credit card company.
I've never had a chargeback before, and I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate to issue a refund for a phantom return. As a point of reference, I'm willing to take a negative feedback but would like to avoid or minimize any financial loss. I have a few questions and would appreciate whatever constructive advice the board can provide.
1. How likely is it that I will lose in the event of a chargeback?
2. If I lose the chargeback, will eBay refund my Final Value Fee?
3. If I lose the chargeback, will Paypal refund their commission or will they instead charge me an additional fee?
4. If I lose the chargeback, what is the chance that eBay or Paypal will eat the loss and make me whole?
Thank you for any help you can provide, especially if your knowledge is the result of bitter experience.
1/26/11 Update: Buyer has filed a chargeback, and I have filed a response with Paypal. While this is pending, Paypal has debited my account for the amount of money in dispute.
2/21/11 Update: The buyer left me negative feedback and all 1s on the DSRs. Paypal says they are disputing the chargeback with the credit card issuer. Yesterday Paypal charged me a $27.13 commission on the $925 sale, after previously having taken the $897.87 net from my account last month. I don't know why Paypal thinks they're entitled to a commission on the "sale" if I'm at risk of losing my merchandise and my money. Paypal has also charged me a $20 chargeback fee, which they claim the credit card issuer has charged them, and they're just passing it along. I'm still hoping this works out.
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Comments
1. How likely is it that I will lose in the event of a chargeback? You will likely lose.
2. If I lose the chargeback, will eBay refund my Final Value Fee? I don't think so.
3. If I lose the chargeback, will Paypal refund their commission or will they instead charge me an additional fee? I don't think so.
4. If I lose the chargeback, what is the chance that eBay or Paypal will eat the loss and make me whole? I don't think so.
For eBay/PayPal, it's up to the buyer to prove the item was delivered to you. I would pursue the delivery confirmation with your local post office.
<< <i>1. How likely is it that I will lose in the event of a chargeback?
2. If I lose the chargeback, will eBay refund my Final Value Fee?
3. If I lose the chargeback, will Paypal refund their commission or will they instead charge me an additional fee?
4. If I lose the chargeback, what is the chance that eBay or Paypal will eat the loss and make me whole?
Thank you for any help you can provide, especially if your knowledge is the result of bitter experience. >>
A 1, Pretty likely because credit card company tends to protect their customers.
A 2, No. I don't think so.
A 3, NO. I don't think so.
A 4, no chance.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>paypal seller protection will protect you from chargeback, especially since you won the claim. Paypal will eat it and try to recover from buyer. If they can't, they will shut him down. Also note that CC companies do not automatically award refunds to their cardholders. They will investigate, contact paypal, and possibly contact you. >>
PayPal will be able to show the CC company prove of receipt. If buyer can't prove item was returned, then he will lose the chargeback case.
Just another reason to not do eBay or regular Paypal if it can be helped.
Buyers beware, but sellers must protect themself of this kind of activity that borders on fraud imo.
I hope it somehow comes out best for you though.
<< <i>You will lose the chargeback. sorry to be the bearer of the bad news, but CC companies will side with the buyer every single time. I have yet to hear of a case where the CC company denied this type of claim.
Just another reason to not do eBay or regular Paypal if it can be helped.
Buyers beware, but sellers must protect themself of this kind of activity that borders on fraud imo.
I hope it somehow comes out best for you though. >>
Wrong. Seller protection means paypal eats the loss. Just another reason to use Ebay and Paypal. Read the whole thread.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>
<< <i>You will lose the chargeback. sorry to be the bearer of the bad news, but CC companies will side with the buyer every single time. I have yet to hear of a case where the CC company denied this type of claim.
Just another reason to not do eBay or regular Paypal if it can be helped.
Buyers beware, but sellers must protect themself of this kind of activity that borders on fraud imo.
I hope it somehow comes out best for you though. >>
Wrong. Seller protection means paypal eats the loss. Just another reason to use Ebay and Paypal. Read the whole thread. >>
Absolutely correct ... You're covered under the sellers protection.
<< <i>I think he will need more proof than just the delivery confirmation slip to win any appeal. It wold seem to me that he would need insurance, as well as a signature
confirmation. Without the signature I think you have a good case, as well as lack of insurance. >>
--Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>I think he will need more proof than just the delivery confirmation slip to win any appeal. It wold seem to me that he would need insurance, as well as a signature
confirmation. Without the signature I think you have a good case, as well as lack of insurance. >>
Does PP require that you insure an item being returned? Otherwise I see no benefit to ins. other than another tracking number.
<< <i>Does PP require that you insure an item being returned? Otherwise I see no benefit to ins. other than another tracking number. >>
Paypal does not require insurance. Insurance means nothing to paypal or it's buyer and seller protection. Buyer is protected from loss (not received) or damage (item not as described) under paypal buyer protection, regardless of whether item was insured. Insurance is a matter strictly between the seller and the shipper. Insurance protects only the seller from loss or damage as these are not covered under seller protection. Seller protection begins with a delivered coin. In paypal's eyes the coin is in the seller's possession until proof of delivery has been met. A smart seller will insure to protect himself since it is his coin while in transit and seller protection does not begin until proof of delivery has been met.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I was involved in a very similar case sometime ago, and that;s what ended up happening...after about 3 weeks of bickering.
<< <i>From what I have read, I sincerely hope you win this dispute. >>
Ebay already sided with him in the dispute. His concern now is a CC chargeback by the buyer, but as pointed out above he is covered by paypal seller protection in the event of a chargeback.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>
<< <i>From what I have read, I sincerely hope you win this dispute. >>
Ebay already sided with him in the dispute. His concern now is a CC chargeback by the buyer, but as pointed out above he is covered by paypal seller protection in the event of a chargeback. >>
You are wrong. Seller protection is not protect charge back and ebay/paypal will not eat the fee.
Read this:
What to do if you receive a chargeback:
1.Log in to your PayPal account.
2.Go to the Resolution Center.
3.Respond to the chargeback notice or (check on the status of an existing one).
4.Provide PayPal with the information relating to the chargeback, including all transaction records (such as proof of shipment).
5.The PayPal chargeback specialist will then dispute the chargeback on your behalf and try to recover your funds from the buyer's credit card company.
6.If the credit card company decides in your favor, the buyer will be charged for the transaction and you'll get your money back.
7.If the decision is in favor of the buyer, the transaction will be cancelled and the buyer will receive a full refund.
It's PayPal's mission to help you resolve the dispute as quickly and painlessly as possible, but the process can be lengthy, so you'll need to be patient. It typically takes 30 days for PayPal to dispute the chargeback, and it may take your buyer's credit card company up to 75 days to resolve a chargeback and come to a final decision.
Chargeback Coverage with PayPal Dispute Resolution
PayPal may protect you against any future claim, chargeback or bank reversal the buyer files in relation to that particular transaction. To get the protection, you must honor the agreements you made with the buyer during the dispute resolution process. But we won't be able to offer protection if the claim has not been resolved by the time the chargeback is received.
<< <i>If ebay/paypal have to eat the charge back fee then they will have a lot to eat. >>
They ate $2800 on a chargeback from one of my buyers.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Every claim I have ever had I lost with them.
Even if I had proof of shipping and delivery.
Unauthorized charge back is a lose for the seller every time.
<< <i>Unauthorized charge back is a lose for the seller every time. >>
Wrong. Seller protection covers chargebacks if seller has a paypal transaction "details" pages that says "OK to ship, eligible" and follows the rules.
<< <i>Can you provide more detail about that charge back? >>
All the details
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
In bayard's case is that the buyer not happy with the product and sent it back with DC. If cridet card agree wtih the buyer I believe he have to refund the buyer and paypal will not eat the fee.
<< <i>As you said in your post, paypal screwed up so they have to eat the lost. >>
Their screw up was telling me it was OK to ship via email instead of via details transaction page. As stated earlier the transaction details page informs the seller if the transaction is "eligible" for seller protection. Paypal covers chargebacks on "eligible" transactions where seller has followed the rule of proof of delivery. Paypal uses this proof of delivery to fight the battle with the credit card company. The battles they lose with CC companies are paid with their high fees.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>Chargeback Coverage with PayPal Dispute Resolution
PayPal may protect you against any future claim, chargeback or bank reversal the buyer files in relation to that particular transaction. To get the protection, you must honor the agreements you made with the buyer during the dispute resolution process. But we won't be able to offer protection if the claim has not been resolved by the time the chargeback is received. >>
Bayard's dispute had been resolved in Bayard's favor before the chargeback. Bayard is covered by seller protection in the event of a chargeback.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>
<< <i>Chargeback Coverage with PayPal Dispute Resolution
PayPal may protect you against any future claim, chargeback or bank reversal the buyer files in relation to that particular transaction. To get the protection, you must honor the agreements you made with the buyer during the dispute resolution process. But we won't be able to offer protection if the claim has not been resolved by the time the chargeback is received. >>
Bayard's dispute had been resolved in Bayard's favor before the chargeback. Bayard is covered by seller protection in the event of a chargeback. >>
It dosen't matter what the ebay said. What matter is what the credit card say. Charge back and fault protection are two different thing. Paypal protect fault but not charge back. If fact, I believe the last thing eba/paypal want is charge back from the bank.
Because paypal protect you once you don't have to say all the good thing for them. They might screw you up next time very fast.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>
<< <i>Does PP require that you insure an item being returned? Otherwise I see no benefit to ins. other than another tracking number. >>
Paypal does not require insurance. Insurance means nothing to paypal or it's buyer and seller protection. Buyer is protected from loss (not received) or damage (item not as described) under paypal buyer protection, regardless of whether item was insured. Insurance is a matter strictly between the seller and the shipper. Insurance protects only the seller from loss or damage as these are not covered under seller protection. Seller protection begins with a delivered coin. In paypal's eyes the coin is in the seller's possession until proof of delivery has been met. A smart seller will insure to protect himself since it is his coin while in transit and seller protection does not begin until proof of delivery has been met. >>
I believe that you misunderstood my question. If a buyer is returning a coin, how could insuring it help him in an appeal of an initial decision favored to a seller? This was the gist of a post made by one member and agreed to by another member.
<< <i>Can you provide more detail about that charge back? >>
No need to give bad guys any ideas. --Jerry
<< <i> If a buyer is returning a coin, how could insuring it help him in an appeal of an initial decision favored to a seller? This was the gist of a post made by one member and agreed to by another member. >>
Insuring a return serves no purpose except to protect the person returning the coin in the event it gets lost or damaged en route to the original seller. Insurance protects the person doing the shipping and has no bearing on paypal protection or dispute/claim outcome. The person doing the shipping will be the last person with possesion of the coin in the eyes of ebay and paypal. That person will also be held responsible by paypal and ebay to refund the price of the coin to the person expecting the shipment in the event the shipment is lost or damaged. It is up to the person doing the shipping to deal an insurance claim. A lost coin is the responsibility of the person who shipped it, who will in turn deal with the shipping company for reimbursement.
Bottom line: Paypal doesn't care about insurance, they require on-line viewable proof of delivery. Paypal takes money back upon non-delivery and leaves any insurance battle between the person who shipped and the shipper hired by that person. Insurance is a great thing if you are the person doing the shipping. It is your only protection between the time you ship and the time you have proof of delivery. Your paypal protection begins after proof of delivery.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>When this is resolved please out the buyer so I can block him. >>
The buyer is micah0216. He left me my first negative feedback in years, and it borders on defamation.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>
<< <i>From what I have read, I sincerely hope you win this dispute. >>
Ebay already sided with him in the dispute. His concern now is a CC chargeback by the buyer, but as pointed out above he is covered by paypal seller protection in the event of a chargeback. >>
In one of my chargebacks that Paypal covered, paypal had already sided with me so when the chargeback came, there wasn't any question. They told me "no double jeopardy". --jerry
<< <i> Charge back and fault protection are two different thing. Paypal protect fault but not charge back. >>
Perhaps JT88 is not in the United States, since he/she writes in non-standard English.
Chargebacks are clearly protected under Paypal seller protection for US sellers
If you are a US PayPal account holder and your transaction is deemed eligible, PayPal will cover you in the event of an unauthorized purchase, an "item not received" claim, a chargeback, or a reversal. Learn more about what's eligible and what's not below.
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=security/seller_protection_learn_more
Russ, NCNE
Trust me, I'm in the middle of a triple jeopardy. I won round 1 and 2, and still have had several thousand dollars held until round 3 is resolved.
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