What is the Hobby's current view of PCGS and NGC??
keets
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How do you view same grade coins from PCGS and NGC in a general sense?? Is one more lenient or strict than the other?? Is one a better value than the other?? I know there was a time in the not so distant past when it was widely acknowledged that PCGS graded more strictly than NGC but submitters and dealers thought it was a "wash" when relative prices were taken into account. Is that still the opinion held widely within the Hobby??
Also, given the 3-5 year plunge into non-entity-ness taken by ANACS along with the dissappearance of ICG and SEGS, are PCGS and NGC effectively the only game in town today??
Thanks for you indulgence.
Al H.
Also, given the 3-5 year plunge into non-entity-ness taken by ANACS along with the dissappearance of ICG and SEGS, are PCGS and NGC effectively the only game in town today??
Thanks for you indulgence.
Al H.
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Comments
That said, pcgs coins tend to bring more money then ngc coins in almost all cases (when same coin is in each holder)
<< <i>Your question seems so simple that Im surprised you-who has been here for years- are asking the question.
That said, pcgs coins tend to bring more money then ngc coins in almost all cases (when same coin is in each holder) >>
IMO, however, overall it's PCGS by a wide margin.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Yes, PCGS do tend to bring more money, however I have submitted 3 coins (NGC holders) to PCGS for cross-over and all three did!!! (with the same grade
I like the PCGS holders better, but wish there "blue box" would also hold the NGC ones (for the few I still have!!)
Blessings
Merry Christmas to ALL
not to be argumentative, but...........................
this is what i alluded to when i stated "I know there was a time in the not so distant past when it was widely acknowledged that PCGS graded more strictly than NGC but submitters and dealers thought it was a "wash" when relative prices were taken into account simply because while PCGS coins tend to "bring more money then ngc coins in almost all cases" they also cost more in almost all cases, hence, the wash. i presume by your answer(s) that it's still the same. that same reasoning figured in when members/dealers spoke of submitting coins and it was widely acknowledged that the NGC turnaround was much quicker.
Tom, you bring up a good point with you mention of CAC'd NGC coins. i guess the bean gives the impression that those coins are on par with a same grade PCGS coin, is that correct??
<< <i>Tom, you bring up a good point with you mention of CAC'd NGC coins. i guess the bean gives the impression that those coins are on par with a same grade PCGS coin, is that correct?? >>
May be close but on par? Not by a long shot in my book. CAC does make up a bit of the lost ground though. Say there's 100 yards between PCGS and NGC. Adding a CAC sticker might cut it to 50 yards but it's still 50 yards away.
And yes, PCGS and NGC are the only TPG on the field in my book.
So far as PCGS and NGC go, my personal preference is for PCGS, especially when it comes to circulated coins.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
no.
<< <i>My opinion is that PCGS and NGC are the only holders that improve liquidity of a coin vs. the coin being kept raw. Also, I think that CAC has helped NGC sales prices or liquidity when the NGC slab has the CAC sticker. >>
I certainly agree.
<< <i>I will say this again for the tenth time. NGC grades are at times one to two grades lower when crossed over to PCGS. I have lost money before playing this game. PCGS is better bottom line in my oppinion. >>
You must have a kool-aid IV
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
NGC = not good
<< <i>PGCS = good
NGC = not good >>
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Lafayette Grading Set
Common date morgans are the same price in either holder, common date quarters are the same price in either holder. Most widgets are the same IMO from what i have seen.
Red copper used to sell for a lot more in PCGS plastic, that appears to be changing.
I would think a lot of collectors ( maybe not the obsesed pcgs fourm posters) would feel that CAC stickered coins should sell for the same price in either holder on the basic coins where color does not add a premium
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Varies greatly by series... and I only have personal experience with a handful of them.
IMO, however, overall it's PCGS by a wide margin. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>I will say this again for the tenth time. NGC grades are at times one to two grades lower when crossed over to PCGS. I have lost money before playing this game. PCGS is better bottom line in my oppinion. >>
You must have a kool-aid IV
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Actually, the difference (perceived rather than real in most cases) is only of consequence to those concerned with sales values. To collectors, not concerned with selling, the coin is the objective, not the slab. Also, if individuals who choose to be involved in numismatics would learn to grade (that is, to become skilled at giving opinions that fall reasonably within accepted guidelines), there would be less controversy regarding grades/TPG's. Cheers, RickO >>
+1
I personaly find more nice coins in NGC holders and tend to get them for better prices so those that are PCGS diehards I say stick to your guns as you are passing up on thousands of great coins becuase of a label and I am reaping the benifit. I think PCGS undergrades as much as NGC overgrades so neither TPG is perfect but I think they are the only game in town.
....amen to that ! pass me another glass full
<< <i>Actually, the difference (perceived rather than real in most cases) is only of consequence to those concerned with sales values. To collectors, not concerned with selling, the coin is the objective, not the slab. Also, if individuals who choose to be involved in numismatics would learn to grade (that is, to become skilled at giving opinions that fall reasonably within accepted guidelines), there would be less controversy regarding grades/TPG's. Cheers, RickO >>
Folks who don't know how to condition grade coins are slab collectors, not coin collectors. Knowing how to condition grade coins is the cornerstone of coin collecting, as it relates directly to one's ability to appreciate the coins. The TPGs know better than anybody where to cheat on the condition grades, though, by virtue, simply, of the sheer volume of coins they've seen. Thus, they're unquestionably the best at market grading them. That's how I see it.
<< <i>half my collection is housed in pcgs plastic and half in ngc plastic, but if you all just saw the photos you would have no way of telling which is in what holder. >>
Actually, I probably could. The NGC holder tends to create a shadow around the edge of smaller coins in photos (with the exception of the new prong holders which are even more obvious).
I prefer my coins in PCGS holders for a number of hobby-related reasons. For marketability, NGC and CAC equals PCGS in many cases.
PCGS more lenient with $20 gold.
Modern AGE's sometimes turn a brass color in PCGS (and ICG) holders. Have not seen them turn in NGC holders. Suspect it to be a slab paper lable issue.
Personal preference: NGC holder because it just looks more formal.
The price of gold is set by faith, or lack of, in the currency it is priced in.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
First - look at the coin- coins in the same grade can often be low for the grade or high end.
The coin is what is always missing during this discussion-
There is no quantitative analysis that illustrates whether PCGS or NGC is tighter (or whatever the flavor of the month is...).
Grading is subjective and it always will be. Buy PCGS if you like PCGS and buy NGC if you like NCG. I will buy the coin I like...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>PGCS = good
NGC = not good >>
Life is good when you live in a bubble.
<< <i>
There is no quantitative analysis that illustrates whether PCGS or NGC is tighter (or whatever the flavor of the month is...).
>>
Sure there is. Look at pop reports. If one company has 100 coins at the top grade, and the other company has 15 coins, that is strong statistical evidence that the company with 15 is tighter on that particular series and date and mintmark. It isn't 100%, but a 95% or higher statistical confidence level is likely.
A person can also look at auction results for coins sold at true auction. Sure there are outlier results due to die-varieties, toning, or just a super nice coin for the grade. That said, if there are hundreds or thousands of results, and one company's coins sell for a measurably more, that too suggests strong statistical evidence.
Again, of course there a few exceptional coins at any grade level that may go against the trends in the data, but for the average coin at a given grade, the numbers often speak loudly.
-The total of population for the coin at issue in ALL grades that were submitted to each service
-what is the percentage in MS65, 66 AND 67
-The calculate the number of crack outs
-And then lets look at the coins instead of relying solely on the plastic
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Take a 50's date/mm Washington Quarter for example where the split between an PCGS66 and PCGS67 could be $100 to $1000 respectively. Price guides will often list NGC67 coin in between for say $250 (for example) .
If you've got a great coin you're going to realize the highest resale if you make a 7 at PCGS, but some coins that don't make PCGS67 will make NGC 67. So in those cases, those borderline coins are better sent to NGC for resale at $250 vs. being limited to 66 at PCGS with a corresponding resale ceiling of $100.
<< <i>I think the price difference keeps falling.
Common date morgans are the same price in either holder, common date quarters are the same price in either holder. Most widgets are the same IMO from what i have seen.
Red copper used to sell for a lot more in PCGS plastic, that appears to be changing.
I would think a lot of collectors ( maybe not the obsesed pcgs fourm posters) would feel that CAC stickered coins should sell for the same price in either holder on the basic coins where color does not add a premium >>
Wasn't that part of the purpose of CAC to create a level playing field for solid to high end coins regardless of grading service?
<< <i>Wasn't that part of the purpose of CAC to create a level playing field for solid to high end coins regardless of grading service? >>
So would a PCGS MS67 CAC command the same or higher premium than a NGC MS67 CAC coin ???
<< <i>
<< <i>Wasn't that part of the purpose of CAC to create a level playing field for solid to high end coins regardless of grading service? >>
So would a PCGS MS67 CAC command the same or higher premium than a NGC MS67 CAC coin ???
I guess it would have to be the EXACT same coin to really know since no two coins are exactly the same. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I will say this again for the tenth time. NGC grades are at times one to two grades lower when crossed over to PCGS. I have lost money before playing this game. PCGS is better bottom line in my oppinion. >>
I'd like to see someone illustrate with examples. I've seen dogs in both holders. No service is perfect and to select 2-3 coins (or a few more) out of the millions graded provides a biased analysis.
<< <i>
<< <i>
There is no quantitative analysis that illustrates whether PCGS or NGC is tighter (or whatever the flavor of the month is...).
>>
Sure there is. Look at pop reports. If one company has 100 coins at the top grade, and the other company has 15 coins, that is strong statistical evidence that the company with 15 is tighter on that particular series and date and mintmark. It isn't 100%, but a 95% or higher statistical confidence level is likely.
A person can also look at auction results for coins sold at true auction. Sure there are outlier results due to die-varieties, toning, or just a super nice coin for the grade. That said, if there are hundreds or thousands of results, and one company's coins sell for a measurably more, that too suggests strong statistical evidence.
Again, of course there a few exceptional coins at any grade level that may go against the trends in the data, but for the average coin at a given grade, the numbers often speak loudly. >>
But here's the problem: this varies by series. I've seen some copper series where the NGC populations are exceptionally lower than the PCGS series. I saw a couple of examples the other day, and if I can recall the date and series, I'll post them. Also, the numbers are biased insofar as many coins are resubmitted. I wonder how much of the gap is due to stochastic variance/resubmissions. I also doubt that the difference is statistically significant, but I would love to see some data if anyone has anything to the contrary.
All in all, I would love to see a broad, comprehensive scientific study of both PCGS and NGC by date and series complete with a statistical analysis. While this would be difficult given market premiums for toning and other subjective factors, I think that much of this can be adjusted for. I think some series there will be a statistically significant difference, but in many there will not be. I would love to help with the analysis if anyone ever decides to conduct such a study.
Finally, it is notable that both PCGS and NGC have undergone periods where they are more conservative than others. For instance, in its early days of operation, NGC sight unseen bids were actually higher than for PCGS coins. The difference was significant, and it was claimed at the time NGC was a point tighter. And no, I'm not making this up. I'll have to dig out my old edition of the Coin Collector Survival Manual (the Travers book) to provide the exact numbers.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wasn't that part of the purpose of CAC to create a level playing field for solid to high end coins regardless of grading service? >>
So would a PCGS MS67 CAC command the same or higher premium than a NGC MS67 CAC coin ???
If the underlying theory/purpose of CAC is correct then they should THEORETICALLY sell for the same price. Also, many allude to price performance as a measure of superior coin grading; however, much of this can be attributed to marketing. PCGS created a huge barrier to the NGC market when it launched its registry much earlier. Also, PCGS has always worked to establish market makers to buy coins sight unseen, creating a market for the coins. All in all, PCGS has superior marketing, but the grading should close if not identical to that rendered by NGC in most cases (obviously there are exceptions).
<< <i>My opinion is that PCGS and NGC are the only holders that improve liquidity of a coin vs. the coin being kept raw. Also, I think that CAC has helped NGC sales prices or liquidity when the NGC slab has the CAC sticker. >>
Me thinks the CAC sticker helped the coin more than....well, you know who.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Tom, you bring up a good point with you mention of CAC'd NGC coins. i guess the bean gives the impression that those coins are on par with a same grade PCGS coin, is that correct?? >>
May be close but on par? Not by a long shot in my book. CAC does make up a bit of the lost ground though. Say there's 100 yards between PCGS and NGC. Adding a CAC sticker might cut it to 50 yards but it's still 50 yards away.
And yes, PCGS and NGC are the only TPG on the field in my book. >>
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I think the price difference keeps falling.
Common date morgans are the same price in either holder, common date quarters are the same price in either holder. Most widgets are the same IMO from what i have seen.
Red copper used to sell for a lot more in PCGS plastic, that appears to be changing.
I would think a lot of collectors ( maybe not the obsessed pcgs fourm posters) would feel that CAC stickered coins should sell for the same price in either holder on the basic coins where color does not add a premium >>
Could be, with the way the economy is, collectors are short of money--settling for less quality.
I'm in that boat but I haven't wavered.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Actually, the difference (perceived rather than real in most cases) is only of consequence to those concerned with sales values. To collectors, not concerned with selling, the coin is the objective, not the slab. Also, if individuals who choose to be involved in numismatics would learn to grade (that is, to become skilled at giving opinions that fall reasonably within accepted guidelines), there would be less controversy regarding grades/TPG's. Cheers, RickO >>
True but a larger percent of those collectors will never try or haven't figured it out or have given up altogether trying to understand the system because it keeps changing. That's where the bottom fell out for me. The only thing that's left are the serious collectors.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>PGCS = good
NGC = not good >>
Life is good when you live in a bubble. >>
And there are reasons why bubbles pop.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection