<< <i>Using gold as money is almost as absurd as using pieces of paper with pictures of dead guys printed on it.
Welcome to the pm forum. Please elaborate on your statement. >>
I prefer to read rather than get involved in the discussions that happen on here because I have more to learn than I have to say about the precious metals market. However, I couldn't resist the opportunity to point out (in a rather tongue-in-cheek way) that this conversation seems to be about the social construction of value. Considering that neither fiat currency nor precious metals can, by themselves, meet our basic survival or comfort needs, their intrinsic value is only that which we believe them to possess, and on a certain level the answer to the question being asked (why do we give gold value at all?) is simply "we always have." With that in mind, it seems to me that using a disc made from yellow metal to buy a loaf of bread is neither more nor less absurd of a concept than using a piece of paper with George Washington's face printed on it. The topic raised by the OP could easily be reversed into "Money is not gold and money is not valuable. What do you think about that?" without really altering the substance of the discussion.
>>
This gem, for example
SurfWVA should definitely post a little more. Obviously an intelligent fellow
For centuries gold has demonstrated its ability to serve as a store of value vs. fiat currencies that decline in value over time due to continuous expansion of supply. Do you really think now is any different? I would argue that the only thing different now is that gold's protection is more important and more needed than ever before, especially with a worldwide coordinated effort to debase currency.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I would agree on the first part..."Gold is not money" .... try using your gold as a medium to buy something at Wallmart ..... However, I strongly disagree on the second part...It darn sure is valuable, just like diamonds and diamonds are also not money.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>I would agree on the first part..."Gold is not money" .... try using your gold as a medium to buy something at Wallmart ..... However, I strongly disagree on the second part...It darn sure is valuable, just like diamonds and diamonds are also not money. >>
That's an interesting point, as I for one don't really consider diamonds that valuable. Their rarity is manipulated and GREATLY overstated thus leading to a huge overstatement of value, not to mention you can create flawless ones in the lab at a fraction of the cost of an inflated natural stone.
It might be viewed as outdated to few, but I am not going to argue with the principles that this country was founded on.
I personally think that people have just become complacent.
From Wiki (I know the most legit source of info ) Money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given socio-economic context or country. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally in the past, a standard of deferred payment. Any kind of object or secure verifiable record that fulfills these functions can be considered money.
Money is historically an emergent market phenomenon establishing a commodity money, but nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money. Fiat money, like any check or note of debt, is without intrinsic use value as a physical commodity. It derives its value by being declared by a government to be legal tender; that is, it must be accepted as a form of payment within the boundaries of the country, for "all debts, public and private"
I prefer to read rather than get involved in the discussions that happen on here because I have more to learn than I have to say about the precious metals market. However, I couldn't resist the opportunity to point out (in a rather tongue-in-cheek way) that this conversation seems to be about the social construction of value. Considering that neither fiat currency nor precious metals can, by themselves, meet our basic survival or comfort needs, their intrinsic value is only that which we believe them to possess, and on a certain level the answer to the question being asked (why do we give gold value at all?) is simply "we always have." With that in mind, it seems to me that using a disc made from yellow metal to buy a loaf of bread is neither more nor less absurd of a concept than using a piece of paper with George Washington's face printed on it.
While it is true that precious metals only have intrinsic value to the extent that we give them that value, it is also true that they have functioned in that capacity over time better than any other monetary construct, to date. Fiat currency has been disproven in every previous instance in which it was used, and this is happening once again, only now it is happening on a global scale. Fiat is too susceptible to corruption, and we are seeing exactly that.
The topic raised by the OP could easily be reversed into "Money is not gold and money is not valuable. What do you think about that?" without really altering the substance of the discussion.
Unless I've forgotten the language and lost my ability to follow logic, the first part of this statement is the equivalent of the OP's first part, just stated in the reverse order - but still the equivalent. However, the second part - the idea that money is not valuable isn't the same as stating that gold is not valuable, unless you accept that money is gold and vice versa. So the proposition is different, but there is little net difference in the meaning.
I believe the benefit of recognizing gold as money is that of recognizing a reality that is based upon centuries of human experience. Things could always change and the experience can change, but the best experiments are those that get tested and retested with essentially the same results over time.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
How many people on this planet could you drop a 50 pound brick of gold in front of them, and their immediate comment is "wow that must be worth alot of money"
Maybe central banks have large quantities or gold, maybe they don't, but if they do, why would they?
Central banks can print or type currency into existence whenever they want, yet theres something about gold that makes it "thee" physical object to hold in their personal vaults
If it were not money central banks would not be filling their vaults with it or bringing it home from foreign vaults. The increase in both moves tells me that if ain't money now it will soon be.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>I believe the benefit of recognizing gold as money is that of recognizing a reality that is based upon centuries of human experience. Things could always change and the experience can change, but the best experiments are those that get tested and retested with essentially the same results over time. >>
History repeats itself because people weren't paying attention the first time around
<< <i>Just because people do not recognize something as valuable does not mean that there are millions of others that do and know how to value it. John Reed thought his doorstop around 1800 was just a rock, much like the Indians that valued copper but depreciated gold's utility. John Reed more or less gave away a fortune in value to a jeweler/pawn shop owner. >>
You know chessman , the other day I noticed you and your alter ego "good" spock posted in the same thread.
From Wiki (I know the most legit source of info ) Money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts
I don't think anyone is arguing that gold cannot BE money, they're just stating (the obvious) that it's not the ONLY thing that can be "money"
Gold and silver are viewed as monetary metals, not commodities. As such, supply does not dictate the price. Demand and supply are inelastic. Thus, demand rises with a higher price, while supply falls with a higher price.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Look at a chart of any stock and notice how volume (demand) is highest when prices peak. I imagine if we could find a chart of real estate transactions from 2000 to 2008 we would see the same pattern. Gold is the same. Just another asset class that will make geniuses of some and fools of others.
Look at a chart of any stock and notice how volume (demand) is highest when prices peak. I imagine if we could find a chart of real estate transactions from 2000 to 2008 we would see the same pattern. Gold is the same. Just another asset class that will make geniuses of some and fools of others. >>
Time will expose the geniuses and the fools as it has for the last ten years.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Gold as a metal, it has very few uses........You would probably not be reading this on the internet if not for gold CPU circuits. Your air bag on your car would most likely fail when needed if not for gold connector pins. I certainly don't want to talk about high tech security systems at the bank that protect our paper. No, you would not want to use it to make a gun barrel, a car engine, or airplane body, but I bet you hope that electrical circuit that lowers the landing gear on a plane doesn't fail., If it did..we may want to make one last call, on that trusty old cell phone.Text The point is...gold is being used a lot more than we realize..and may be one of the reasons its getting so darn expensive..
<< <i>I agree though, gold is pretty much useless in a survival state of existence, its only very useful if things are moderately horrible or better >>
Boy, I miss Eric (BigE) and his perspective.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Swampboy, I had bought some stuff from Eric and then had some pm conversations with him about the Gold Spouses. When I read your comment, I just had to go back and read those pms. Dang, we lost a good guy way too soon.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Using gold as money is almost as absurd as using pieces of paper with pictures of dead guys printed on it.
Welcome to the pm forum. Please elaborate on your statement.
I prefer to read rather than get involved in the discussions that happen on here because I have more to learn than I have to say about the precious metals market. However, I couldn't resist the opportunity to point out (in a rather tongue-in-cheek way) that this conversation seems to be about the social construction of value. Considering that neither fiat currency nor precious metals can, by themselves, meet our basic survival or comfort needs, their intrinsic value is only that which we believe them to possess, and on a certain level the answer to the question being asked (why do we give gold value at all?) is simply "we always have." With that in mind, it seems to me that using a disc made from yellow metal to buy a loaf of bread is neither more nor less absurd of a concept than using a piece of paper with George Washington's face printed on it. The topic raised by the OP could easily be reversed into "Money is not gold and money is not valuable. What do you think about that?" without really altering the substance of the discussion.
This gem, for example
SurfWVA should definitely post a little more. Obviously an intelligent fellow
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>If I were hungry, I'd prefer bread to gold. >>
If you were storing wealth, would you prefer a warehouse full of bread or a safe full of gold? >>
Gold is a storage of X, where X is whatever you want it to be (i.e. bread, bullets, land etc.)
Bread spoils so no storing bread.
Bullets are a lot cheaper than gold and the equivalent would be unreasonable to store...
Land can be taken by force... It's happened.
Just a few examples but the point is the same with just about anything.
Ray
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>I would agree on the first part..."Gold is not money" .... try using your gold as a medium to buy something at Wallmart ..... However, I strongly disagree on the second part...It darn sure is valuable, just like diamonds and diamonds are also not money. >>
That's an interesting point, as I for one don't really consider diamonds that valuable. Their rarity is manipulated and GREATLY overstated thus leading to a huge overstatement of value, not to mention you can create flawless ones in the lab at a fraction of the cost of an inflated natural stone.
I personally think that people have just become complacent.
From Wiki (I know the most legit source of info
Money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given socio-economic context or country. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally in the past, a standard of deferred payment. Any kind of object or secure verifiable record that fulfills these functions can be considered money.
Money is historically an emergent market phenomenon establishing a commodity money, but nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money. Fiat money, like any check or note of debt, is without intrinsic use value as a physical commodity. It derives its value by being declared by a government to be legal tender; that is, it must be accepted as a form of payment within the boundaries of the country, for "all debts, public and private"
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
I prefer to read rather than get involved in the discussions that happen on here because I have more to learn than I have to say about the precious metals market. However, I couldn't resist the opportunity to point out (in a rather tongue-in-cheek way) that this conversation seems to be about the social construction of value. Considering that neither fiat currency nor precious metals can, by themselves, meet our basic survival or comfort needs, their intrinsic value is only that which we believe them to possess, and on a certain level the answer to the question being asked (why do we give gold value at all?) is simply "we always have." With that in mind, it seems to me that using a disc made from yellow metal to buy a loaf of bread is neither more nor less absurd of a concept than using a piece of paper with George Washington's face printed on it.
While it is true that precious metals only have intrinsic value to the extent that we give them that value, it is also true that they have functioned in that capacity over time better than any other monetary construct, to date. Fiat currency has been disproven in every previous instance in which it was used, and this is happening once again, only now it is happening on a global scale. Fiat is too susceptible to corruption, and we are seeing exactly that.
The topic raised by the OP could easily be reversed into "Money is not gold and money is not valuable. What do you think about that?" without really altering the substance of the discussion.
Unless I've forgotten the language and lost my ability to follow logic, the first part of this statement is the equivalent of the OP's first part, just stated in the reverse order - but still the equivalent. However, the second part - the idea that money is not valuable isn't the same as stating that gold is not valuable, unless you accept that money is gold and vice versa. So the proposition is different, but there is little net difference in the meaning.
I believe the benefit of recognizing gold as money is that of recognizing a reality that is based upon centuries of human experience. Things could always change and the experience can change, but the best experiments are those that get tested and retested with essentially the same results over time.
I knew it would happen.
Maybe central banks have large quantities or gold, maybe they don't, but if they do, why would they?
Central banks can print or type currency into existence whenever they want, yet theres something about gold that makes it "thee" physical object to hold in their personal vaults
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>I believe the benefit of recognizing gold as money is that of recognizing a reality that is based upon centuries of human experience. Things could always change and the experience can change, but the best experiments are those that get tested and retested with essentially the same results over time. >>
History repeats itself because people weren't paying attention the first time around
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
<< <i>Just because people do not recognize something as valuable does not mean that there are millions of others that do and know how to value it. John Reed thought his doorstop around 1800 was just a rock, much like the Indians that valued copper but depreciated gold's utility. John Reed more or less gave away a fortune in value to a jeweler/pawn shop owner. >>
You know chessman , the other day I noticed you and your alter ego "good" spock posted in the same thread.
what do you intend to do about this?
From Wiki (I know the most legit source of info )
Money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts
I don't think anyone is arguing that gold cannot BE money, they're just stating (the obvious) that it's not the ONLY thing that can be "money"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Look at a chart of any stock and notice how volume (demand) is highest when prices peak. I imagine if we could find a chart of real estate transactions from 2000 to 2008 we would see the same pattern. Gold is the same. Just another asset class that will make geniuses of some and fools of others.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>demand rises with a higher price
Look at a chart of any stock and notice how volume (demand) is highest when prices peak. I imagine if we could find a chart of real estate transactions from 2000 to 2008 we would see the same pattern. Gold is the same. Just another asset class that will make geniuses of some and fools of others. >>
Time will expose the geniuses and the fools as it has for the last ten years.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
and more importantly, what about the next 2 years? Will we have to read you writing about what a genius PM investor is with gold 1400 and silver 22?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I agree though, gold is pretty much useless in a survival state of existence, its only very useful if things are moderately horrible or better >>
Boy, I miss Eric (BigE) and his perspective.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
I knew it would happen.