..Done (please delete)
Reljac
Posts: 758
forget it... too many here missed the point...
0
Reljac
Posts: 758
Comments
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>I had a dealing like that with BMW cards today.....I offerd 15% higher than VCP average. His BIN/OBO price is slighty over double VCP average, and would set a new record high price if it sold. He counters by knocking $10 off. The card last had offers in May of this past year. Some dealers have no interest in turning over inventory, nor do they understand basic economics. It is still 2004 to them...... >>
The people who 'don't understand basic economics' are people like yourself who think that all participants in the collectibles market should be compelled to sell for close to the market price.
The market price in sports card is the break-even price, because the market price is set by weekend warriors who are operating without a profit motive. If you are participating in the sports card market for the sole purpose of turning a profit you are going to HAVE to sit on inventory- and often sit on it for a long time- until you can sell it for a price that at least comes close to maximizing its value.
<< <i>The people who 'don't understand basic economics' are people like yourself who think that all participants in the collectibles market should be compelled to sell for close to the market price. >>
I do know I am not going to pay $50 for a 4-pack of toilet paper when another store down the road is selling that same 4-pack of toilet paper for $3. If that store was the only store in town with toilet paper, then yes, I guess I will pay $50 a roll. Until that time comes however, then I will keep paying the $3 the 4-pack of toilet paper, and the store selling it for $50 can keep it on his shelf until it turns into dust. Economics 101......there ya go buddy.....
Edited to add that I need toilet paper more than I need pieces of cardboard. Technically though, neither is really life necessities.....
sure, put a custom hot rod out there in front of your showroom, it WILL draw people in, most of whom also have a credit card or a checkbook for the purchase of something they can realistically afford.....give 'em credit where credit is due, but you don't "need" their stuff.
i ain't wiping with my fingers though Bobby. sorry.
"A card is worth at LEAST the minimum a person is willing to sell if for"
Granted, this guy may be trying to turn a profit on the card or he may would rather keep it then sell it for less. I got a guy in my town who has over 1000 boxes of late 80's and early 90's non sport cards, boxes like Strawberry Shortcake, Smurfs, MASH, GI Joe, Desert Storm, etc etc. He tells me he paid almost $8 a box for them 15 years ago, but would be willing to take $5 a box. THEYRE NOT WORTH THAT I tell him, but he would rather keep them then sell them for less. I respect his decision even though I feel he will own those cards forever
<< <i>
<< <i>The people who 'don't understand basic economics' are people like yourself who think that all participants in the collectibles market should be compelled to sell for close to the market price. >>
I do know I am not going to pay $50 for a 4-pack of toilet paper when another store down the road is selling that same 4-pack of toilet paper for $3. If that store was the only store in town with toilet paper, then yes, I guess I will pay $50 a roll. Until that time comes however, then I will keep paying the $3 the 4-pack of toilet paper, and the store selling it for $50 can keep it on his shelf until it turns into dust. Economics 101......there ya go buddy.....
Edited to add that I need toilet paper more than I need pieces of cardboard. Technically though, neither is really life necessities..... >>
with the card values in my collection, they and toilet paper rank about the same..but charmin is softer than a sosa rookie for sure
Does a seller HAVE to sell at market? Not, of course not. It's up to the seller to decide between the options of current losses and moving items or waiting out the prevailing market (or hoping to land am over-eager buyer).
Does a buyer have the right to expect at-market prices? Yes, IMO. But he can't fault the seller who won't sell at that price.
IMO, a lot of the sellers holding out with way-above-market prices are those weekend warriors that Boo alluded to. THEY are the ones who often turn a blind eye to current market realities, either because they just won't admit those 1987 sets aren't coming back or because they really don't need to sell except to finance more buying.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
that is simply not the case...
the seller should sell at their price only...
people here can complain about book / market value...
but it just doesn't matter...
move on...
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
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<< <i>I find it humorous when people on these boards think that sellers should sell at the buyers price...
that is simply not the case...
the seller should sell at their price only...
people here can complain about book / market value...
but it just doesn't matter...
move on... >>
+1
Please explain this. The way I understand it, an illiquid market is one where very little trading takes place, or one where assets cannot be easily converted into cash. Millions of dollars worth of cards and memorabilia are sold on the internet, at shows and in shops every day. I can put just about any card of value on ebay and get close to market value, cash in hand within 2 weeks. I'm not sure you can get much more liquid than that. Am I missing something?
Lee
I couldn't resist in replying,I read this board every day and wanted to say simply this.....Part of economics is doing your homework,the potential buyer has,and as it reads,the seller hasn't.
Or- he's buried in the price of the card and waiting to "find" someone to bail him out,hence not doing his due diligence,(homework)
Just also wanted to add,this is a great place to gain knowledge.
Thanks for your time
Rob
<< <i>Like I've said in prior threads... memorabilia exist in an illiquid market.
Please explain this. The way I understand it, an illiquid market is one where very little trading takes place, or one where assets cannot be easily converted into cash. Millions of dollars worth of cards and memorabilia are sold on the internet, at shows and in shops every day. I can put just about any card of value on ebay and get close to market value, cash in hand within 2 weeks. I'm not sure you can get much more liquid than that. Am I missing something?
Lee >>
In a liquid market the price you can get for a commodity isn't a function of time. For example, if I have something like-- oh, I don't know-- say a trimmed '55 Bowman Mays that I'm trying to sell as unaltered, the price I can expect to get for that is dependent on how long I'm willing to hold onto it. If I wait two years I can get more (in all likelihood) then if I insist on selling it in the next 7 days.
This is why the concept of 'market value'- so frequently bandied about on these boards-- is of limited value to sports card dealers. A card can sell for $50 today, and and identical copy can sell for $150 tomorrow. This can happen despite the fact that the fundamentals behind the card haven't changed one iota in that time span. Since sports card sales are incredibly sensitive to the number and type of entrants into the market, prices can vary wildly even when none of the drivers of card value have changed (player performance, admittance into the HOF, etc).
Other illiquid assets include things like real estate. The longer you can wait to sell, the higher the price you can get (this is with holding all other factors constant). For something like a publicly traded equity this condition doesn't apply, since the most you can hope to sell it for (absent any market changes) is the current market price.
You forgot to add Boopitts....I never trimmed that card...I bought it from someone....did I possibly buy it from you???? What if I submitted it to ISA and they gave it a '9'?? Does that mean they are right and PSA is wrong? Should you have even sold me a trimmed card in the first place???
<< <i>I just sold a Mars Attacks card....I set a record low.....I don't have to get double, or triple VCP average.....maybe I am just too stupid to understand what makes a sellers copy 3 times higher than the average selling price...carry on boopitts...... >>
Did you just play the 'spell the name wrong as a witty little jab' card, you smack talkin' vixen, you?
I just thought the high unemployment and economic uncertainty would breed more eager sellers, but its sometimes not the case. Good deals will come. Just set your ebay saved searches to the item you are hunting and wait till you get what you want.
I am involved in the family rental business and I am in a position where I do not have to rent out some of the units for below market value (If I lower my asking rent, then the current tenants will want that same discount, so its better to leave the vacancy and just write it off come tax time). I get really annoyed when prospective tenants spend a lot of time haggling and justifying a lower price by citing properties that are cheaper (yes there are cheaper properties because location is in a more undesirable neighborhood and not as remodeled as mine). I really don't want to get into their arguing. They are astonished when I tell them that it does not matter if the unit stays empty for months (it really doesn't). I have my reasons that I keep to myself but will share here for the sake of discussion: I am not hungry, I like dealing with less tenants, less damage to the property, less wear, less complaints, I have room in case a friend needs temporary housing, etc.
Therefore, I am not bothered by a seller's asking price even if it is above market value. I wait until the last day of the BIN and then offer what I am willing to pay. I do not know if they are hungry or can care less about selling, but a polite email offering a price never hurts. Sure some sellers can get offended, but how is a potential buyer suppose to know how hungry or not they are without at least one polite email.
edit to add additional comments
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Like a sig line
<< <i>There are two points I failed to make...
1) I don't 'need' the card as I have already bought several of it at the lower price. It's just a player I collect. >>
If you don't need it, you shouldn't make such a fuss. You seem frustrated, but honestly the seller doesn't have to drop his price to meet your needs.
I love the misconceptions that some have about the market place and the reliance on price guides and historic pricing data.
I love how some have the perception that the hobby, and those buying and selling within it, should conform to a specific set of "rules."
CLUE #1: If you don't like the price and can't negotiate one that suits you, don't buy it!
CLUE #2: Just because you want to pay what you consider a fair market price based upon the data you're using doesn't mean that the seller is wrong for asking the price that they're asking or refusing to sell at the price that you're offering.
CLUE #3: There's an azz for every seat, it just depends on when and where you want to sit!
<< <i>say a trimmed '55 Bowman Mays >>
Who says it is trimmed?? You see this card right here??
Yea...PSA says it was trimmed...the seller sold it to me for $30...guess what...I didnt think it was trimmed...I sent it back in....PSA 7 baby!!! $400+ So for all the smack you are saying, who says the card is trimmed?? PSA the first time?? What if it gets slabbed a 2nd go round? I'm tired of your crud boopitts.....
<< <i>Thanks to some of you that took the time to read the thread and be constructive...
some of the responders here really need to reread my post.
As I posted in my first thread if you read it:
<< <i>I swear... some seller just have no interest in selling. If the card were graded, I'd understand asking a premium..
Anyhow... just giving a minor rant.... can never understand why someone doesn't bother to check the past history of sales on some cards...
>>
to OTW Cards
Clue 1: You should read the threads before you respond
Clue 2: I never said the seller is wrong. He is the seller and in my prior post I even said in a free market he chooses his priceto sell at, but buyer have to agree on that price for a purchase to be made. I did say that he WILL NOT sell it.
Clue 3: yes, you just sat down in that seat you are referring too. >>
If the generalizations apply, then great. I did read the ENTIRE thread. However, in your haste to be right, you've failed to understand the generalizations that I made and the applications thereof. As I said in the first sentence, if they apply, great! As for CLUE #3, you didn't really get it, did you? The statement refers to the fact that everything will sell at a specific price, hence at a specific price there will be a buyer -- it is just a matter of time and price, hence an azz for every seat. But you're too busy trying to read something else into it, aren't you...
I've learned over the years that when an OP ends up having to explain themselves, they were probably wrong from the get-go, then go about with damage control. Read your title and your first post and tell the rest of us what you meant isn't what you originally said.
<< <i>To quote a quote that I quoted:
"A card is worth at LEAST the minimum a person is willing to sell if for"
Granted, this guy may be trying to turn a profit on the card or he may would rather keep it then sell it for less. I got a guy in my town who has over 1000 boxes of late 80's and early 90's non sport cards, boxes like Strawberry Shortcake, Smurfs, MASH, GI Joe, Desert Storm, etc etc. He tells me he paid almost $8 a box for them 15 years ago, but would be willing to take $5 a box. THEYRE NOT WORTH THAT I tell him, but he would rather keep them then sell them for less. I respect his decision even though I feel he will own those cards forever >>
When you say they're not worth that, it's not hard for a decent shop or show dealer to sell junk wax nonsports boxes at $5 apiece. You have to parcel them out over time (you don't want someone to see that you have 40 boxes of something), but they're an impulse purchase sometimes (especially for people dragging around little kids).
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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<< <i>I can't hear anyone for how loud the crickets are chirping..... >>
Is this in relation to the trimmed Mays?
<< <i>Is this in relation to the trimmed Mays? >>
Yep...alledgely......did you see the Sports King I put a pic up of??? That was supposedly "trimmed" too!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Is this in relation to the trimmed Mays? >>
Yep...alledgely......did you see the Sports King I put a pic up of??? That was supposedly "trimmed" too!!
And did you AS THE BUYER know that the Sports King was supposedly "trimmed" too?
PS - before you hem and haw and say, oh how could you do that, you need to get a clue. At what point on public opinion do you say "well, this is right and this is wrong"........I believe the "trimmed" assesment was wrong so I sent it back in.......I am still not 100% convinced the Mays is trimmed......so you can get off your high horse and stuff it.........
<< <i>I sure did...but hey...guess what.....it was the same size as my others!! And it didn't look trimmed to me.......so I sent it back in!! SCORE!!!!! I'm a firm believer in 2nd opnions.....if you only take the first opinion and leave it at that, then you are a fool......
PS - before you hem and haw and say, oh how could you do that, you need to get a clue. At what opinion do you say "well, this is right and this is wrong"........I believe the "trimmed" assesment was wrong so I sent it back in.......I am still not 100% convinced the Mays is trimmed......so you can get off your high horse and stuff it......... >>
You're good at dodging the point. The point isn't whether or not the Mays card is / was trimmed. The point is, PSA at least once said the Mays card was trimmed, the same PSA that, in your auctions, you tout by saying "cards not graded by one of the big 3 grading companies are not worth the cardboard they are printed on." You then listed the card and conveniently forgot to mention that PSA said it was trimmed. Very few, if any, people on this board will feel that is acceptable. Then, in a move heretofore unprecedented, you actually started a thread to whine about the fact that the guy who bought the Mays card from you that PSA said was trimmed (but of course was not mentioned in the auction) wanted to return the card.
If YOU had been the purchaser of the Mays card and had no knowledge of the fact that PSA said it was trimmed when you bought it, we would have seen a federal investigation the likes of what has not been seen since the infamous Coppel, Texas Postal Fraud Case of 2010.
So again, the point has nothing to do with second opinions and whether or not a card is trimmed. The point is, there is a difference between the seller that sold the Sports King card at a significantly reduced price because PSA said it was trimmed, and you. I'll leave it to you to figure out what that difference is.
Now someone will ask, if you see no problem with the Mays why didn't you send it back for another
opinion?
See what I'm saying?
At least with the Sport King you remembered you had subbed it once before.
I don't think anyone has issue with the fact that the Mays may or may not be have been trimmed. It's the fact that you had 'forgotten' that it was subbed before is the part that nobody buys. Either way I think you're taking what was a light-hearted jab by Boopotts and making more out of it than you should.
<< <i>At least with the Sport King you remembered you had subbed it once before >>
I was not the one who subbed the Sports King and got the "trimmed" assesment...I only subbed it once, and got a '7'.....I bought it from an auction where the seller stated that it was trimmed. I am assuming he subbed it to PSA and they gave it that assesment. I sub and buy 100's of cards a month. Sometimes I can't keep up with everything.
No Steve, that was not directed at you.
If I resub that Mays, and it comes back slabbed, I expect an apology from all the "witch hunt" people.....
You seem to be really hung up on whether the Mays is trimmed or not. That really isn't the issue at hand here.
Again, nobody really cares whether the Mays is trimmed or not. It's the fact that you conveniently forgot you had subbed it once before and didn't disclose the fact that it was rejected by PSA in your raw auction as the seller of the Sport Kings card had. Can you not see that?
2) deception is not pretty, whether you meant to or not
C) popcorn